Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I hope you weren't implying I'm Vilani, there, Mr Gikur. Solomani thru and thru. And, there will be someone knocking on your hatch concerning that. Start learning to walk with a limp. 
Designless Traveller?
- Thread starter Spinward Scout
- Start date
A traveller EDITION needs design sequences. The OGL T20PH is just that, a "Player's Handbook for T20," not a new "Edition of Traveller."
Releasing an edition without any design sequences is not going to improve things. Releasing one with poorly done, or worse, dangerously over-detailed and yet still poorly done ones (FF&S2 comes to mind).
Sci-Fi games without some form of design sequences are fairly rare. The long-running fan-base ones, Traveller, Space Opera, Space Master, and Star Frontiers all had design sequences. Most editions of Trek RPG's had design sequences (Notable exceptions: Starships and Spacemen, and LUG-Trek). Most of the larger Generic engines have some form of design system: GURPS has G:V, Hero includes rules in the core, CORPS has VDS, EABA includes them in the core.
SW-D6 (WEG) has a modification system.
Car Wars new edition has left players without a design system; most of the AADA chapters seem to have stuck with the older materials, with design systems.
Dream Pod 9's games don't have a "Design" system, but do have an "Evaluation and Rating" system that gives context to the designs and tells if they fit the general level of the setting.
Having a design system, at least for ships and vehicles, is a good thing. Having it in the "Player's Manual" probably isn't for most games.
Releasing an edition without any design sequences is not going to improve things. Releasing one with poorly done, or worse, dangerously over-detailed and yet still poorly done ones (FF&S2 comes to mind).
Sci-Fi games without some form of design sequences are fairly rare. The long-running fan-base ones, Traveller, Space Opera, Space Master, and Star Frontiers all had design sequences. Most editions of Trek RPG's had design sequences (Notable exceptions: Starships and Spacemen, and LUG-Trek). Most of the larger Generic engines have some form of design system: GURPS has G:V, Hero includes rules in the core, CORPS has VDS, EABA includes them in the core.
SW-D6 (WEG) has a modification system.
Car Wars new edition has left players without a design system; most of the AADA chapters seem to have stuck with the older materials, with design systems.
Dream Pod 9's games don't have a "Design" system, but do have an "Evaluation and Rating" system that gives context to the designs and tells if they fit the general level of the setting.
Having a design system, at least for ships and vehicles, is a good thing. Having it in the "Player's Manual" probably isn't for most games.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I'm Vilani, So?
It does need design sequences, but it needs ones that are easy to use. I look at MT and cringe thinking of the time I actually tried to teach my group how to make ships. There needs to be a moderation between effective and thourough.
It does need design sequences, but it needs ones that are easy to use. I look at MT and cringe thinking of the time I actually tried to teach my group how to make ships. There needs to be a moderation between effective and thourough.
Scott Martin
SOC-13
Most of the "buzz" around design sequences for T5 is to make sure that the stuff that appears in "basic" T5 *can* be built using the (later) published design sequences. It would also be nice to hammer out how to get some "design light" ability.
Imagine if HG had been designed before LBB-2, and all of the LBB-2 ship design sequences were a subset of what you could do with HG. A couple of years later, HG is published, and all of your carefully designed ships are still completely valid and correct.
It's fine (and generally a good idea) to hide the complexity, but before publishing gear it's important to make sure that it's consistent enough to hang together
Just my strongly biased point of view...
Scott Martin
Imagine if HG had been designed before LBB-2, and all of the LBB-2 ship design sequences were a subset of what you could do with HG. A couple of years later, HG is published, and all of your carefully designed ships are still completely valid and correct.
It's fine (and generally a good idea) to hide the complexity, but before publishing gear it's important to make sure that it's consistent enough to hang together
Just my strongly biased point of view...
Scott Martin
Gents,
I've played plenty of games where I didn't have to design equipment or vehicles. Other than the simple ship design rules in LBB:2 how much could you design with with early Traveller? Being able to desing things is fun but you really don't need design rules to play.
One word about simple and complex design systems. You can't 'inflate' a simple system into a complex one. That is, you can't start with the simple system first and expect it to mesh seemlessly with all the details found in a complex one.
What you can do is begin with the complex system and then 'boil' it down into a simple version. It's a one-way street if you want the two systems to 'mesh'. Simply put, you can't step from QSDS-style to FF&S2-style, but you can step from FF&S2-style to QSDS-style.
Have fun,
Bill
I've played plenty of games where I didn't have to design equipment or vehicles. Other than the simple ship design rules in LBB:2 how much could you design with with early Traveller? Being able to desing things is fun but you really don't need design rules to play.
One word about simple and complex design systems. You can't 'inflate' a simple system into a complex one. That is, you can't start with the simple system first and expect it to mesh seemlessly with all the details found in a complex one.
What you can do is begin with the complex system and then 'boil' it down into a simple version. It's a one-way street if you want the two systems to 'mesh'. Simply put, you can't step from QSDS-style to FF&S2-style, but you can step from FF&S2-style to QSDS-style.
Have fun,
Bill
P
Pickles
Guest
Car wars without design systems? Isn't that an oxymoron? Kind of like off-the-shelf custom cars. I'm deeply saddened by this development.
Ok, I should clarify my position on design sequences:
1: There should be detailed ones for the gearheads and to make sure the system works
2: A nice, simple, modular way of making stuff like ships and vehicles (I see no need for a simple weapon-building sequence) which is based on the above and 100% compatible.
3: A good catalog of stock equipment in the core rules so that people can play straight from the box.
hirch duckfinder
SOC-13
I would support a designless package with a designers add-on book as an optional extra. Excellent idea.
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