Dimensional Gates

[manley_t]

What about.....

A gigantic 'ring' built out of some hitherto undiscovered exotic material that can be 'cut in half'.

The two halves of the ring are connected to each other via a dimensional portal so that they are in effect still in contact with each other no matter how far apart they are.

So, you take ring section A to a point in orbit of WorldA and then take ring section B to a point in orbit of WorldB and you have an instant connection between the two -- travelling through the ring is no different than travelling through a giant normal ring, only instead of coming out on the other side meters away from where you entered you come out light-years away from where you entered, all the while 'inside' the ring is still just meters across.

comments?

 

[TKalbfus]

Yes, that's a wormhole, or a stargate. I was just discussing this sort of thing on Alternatives to the Jump Drive. My idea was to place one of these gates inside a starship and the other one on the home base. The starship would then have an endless supply of fuel that you can pump through the stargate. Typically Stargate oblivate the need for starships to get from here to their. Travel from one planet to the next is on a character personal point of view. The character simply steps through the stargate and he is there.

 

[Aquinas]

This form of Gate follows the scientific (?) principle of the ansible. The two parts of the gate are identical therefor what effects one will have the same effect (instantly) upon the other.

The big plus of this is that ansibles work on a quantum level and are therefore (?) exempt from bothe Newton's and Einstein's laws of motions.

Vidmar (going for a little lie down having confused himself)

 

[manley_t]

ANSIBLE
An interstellar instantaneous communications device.

This word has never broken out of the science-fiction linguistic ghetto in which it was created, though in that field it’s one of the better-known terms. It was invented by Ursula K Le Guin in her novel Rocannon’s World, of 1966: “You remember the ansible, the machine I showed you in the ship, which can speak instantly to other worlds, with no loss of years—it was that that they were after, I expect”.
She tells the story of its invention in The Dispossessed, published in 1974. The same name and concept turns up in several of her books, for example in The Left Hand of Darkness of 1969: “He said in his shrill harsh voice, ‘What’s that?’—pointing to the ansible. ‘The ansible communicator, sir.’ ‘A radio?’ ‘It doesn’t involve radio waves, or any form of energy ... What it does, sir, is produce a message at any two points simultaneously. Anywhere’.”
A method of communication across galactic distances that circumvents Einstein’s theory of relativity is a useful plot device, avoiding part of the suspension of disbelief that is required with the faster-than-light transport of physical objects. The idea has been used by other SF writers, notably James Blish with his Dirac communicator, though only Orson Scott Card has actually borrowed the word itself.
It’s not clear where Le Guin got the name from: some people have read a message into its being an anagram of lesbian; that would be relevant to The Left Hand of Darkness, which deals with androgyny and issues of sexuality, but it doesn’t fit Rocannon’s World and it hasn’t been confirmed as her inspiration.

--http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/

have to admit I've never heard it before...but then, haven't read any Le Guin since high-school.....

 

[manley_t]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Yes, that's a wormhole, or a stargate.

No, it's not -- it's functionally different.

It follows (bear with my lack of terminology here) a quantum principal whereas the two halves of the 'exotic material ring' are joined on a dimensional level other than our own, and the intervening space between the two in essense, exists as if the two halfs of the ring were never seperated.

Wormholes are quite different. They're a theoretical distortion of space-time in a region of the universe that would link one location or time with another, through a path that is shorter in distance or duration than would otherwise be expected.

Stargates are closer but they are a point that breaks into the 'other dimensions' ...
http://www.alien.de/hyperspace/Principles%20of%20gravity%20manipulation.htm

*note -- the above is parent on a german site, so it's kidna hard to find...

My 'Dimensional Ring' isn't a new idea, and not really mine....in fact didn't Greg Bear have something simiar? Don't recall....

But, this would cause instantaneous travel from point to point in our dimension/reality simply becauase crossing the space within the ring does not transverse space as we know it, and thus, there is no distance travelled


:-D

btw -- even though I changed my sig I'm still an arsehole that disagrees with folks

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Big Tim:

<snip>

But, this would cause instantaneous travel from point to point in our dimension/reality simply becauase crossing the space within the ring does not transverse space as we know it, and thus, there is no distance travelled

So if I have this right what you see looking in the 'face' of each ring half is whatever is in front of the 'face' of the other half. Shining a flashlight from side A will illuminate area B, and vice-versa. Each half could be freestanding or solidly mounted to any surface on the 'back' of the ring with no problem. OK question time

So what if anything do you see looking through a ring half from the 'back'?

What happens if something goes through the ring from the 'back'?

What would happen if while something was passing from side A to side B while something else was passing through ring B from the 'back'?

Is there any reason the shape has to be a ring? Could it be a rectangle, triangle, or even a free form ovoid?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Big Tim:
It follows (bear with my lack of terminology here) a quantum principal whereas the two halves of the 'exotic material ring' are joined on a dimensional level other than our own, and the intervening space between the two in essense, exists as if the two halfs of the ring were never seperated.

Wormholes are quite different. They're a theoretical distortion of space-time in a region of the universe that would link one location or time with another, through a path that is shorter in distance or duration than would otherwise be expected.

It seems to me that a semantic equivalent to the preceeding paragraphs is, "it acts like a wormhole but it is actually magic."

I am afraid to convince me otherwise you will at least have to learn better terminology, and perhaps (horrors!) some mathematics.

 

[TKalbfus]

I'm not sure what the difference between a wormhole and a dimensional ring is. they accomplish the same job and a wormhole's neck goes through that same higher dimension you speak of as the dimensional ring does. Wormholes use exotic materials as well. Exotic matter is simply matter made out of negative energy where as most matter we see in the universe is made out of positive energy. If you accumulate alot of exotic matter in one spot it will have a repulsive gravitational field or antigravity, it behaves just like gravity except it pushes rather than pulls. It also pushes all matter, exotic or otherwises and it bends light and energy (Positive or negative) away from itself. Whereas normal gravity can be described as a depression or gravity well in the fabric of space, exotic matter produces a bulge. Light trying to climb this bulge will be red shifted as it loses energy. While an object falling into a gravity well will slow down as its local time clock ticks slower, an object coasting up a gravity bulge will speed up as its local time clock speeds up with respect to the rest of the universe. A neutron star is a dense lump of neutrons about 10 to 100 km in diameter that is prevented from collapsing into a black hole by the short range repulsive forces of its neutrons. An exotic matter "neutron" star would be the opposite, the short range attractive forces between its particles prevents it from exploding under the force of its antigravity. Drop one of these objects into an even larger black hole and you got yourself a wormhole. If you can get your self in between the exotic neutron star and the black hole and stay the right distance from both, the exotic neutron star will open up the singularity at the center of the black hole and the tidal forces from both objects will cancel out. Where exactly this wormhole will lead is not certain. Perhaps to another Universe or perhaps it will create its own.

 

[manley_t]

...warning....
this is a really long post...

So what if anything do you see looking through a ring half from the 'back'?

What happens if something goes through the ring from the 'back'?

What would happen if while something was passing from side A to side B while something else was passing through ring B from the 'back'?

Is there any reason the shape has to be a ring? Could it be a rectangle, triangle, or even a free form ovoid?

Shape doesn't matter...ring just came to mind first. Well, take the ring on your finger. You instert your finger into SideA and it exist SideB. Now, 'cut' the ring into two pieces and in our normal reality you have two seperate rings. But, in Dimension- N the two halves are still joined. So, I keep Ring Half A on my desk at work and give my Ring Half B to my wife at home. When I insert my finger into Ring Half A it emerges out of Ring Half B -- and, likewise, if my wife inserts her finger into Ring Half B it exits Ring Half A, just as if both halves were still a single ring. This would perform true for light or any other form of energy or matter that passes through the ring.

It seems to me that a semantic equivalent to the preceeding paragraphs is, "it acts like a wormhole but it is actually magic."

Hell, A L L of this is magic, and even the Abcuirre Effect depends on some hitherto as yet undiscovered/undeveloped exotic material. That's the fun of specualtion in Science Fiction, you take what is specualted but may or may not be true and let your imagination flow.....

I am afraid to convince me otherwise you will at least have to learn better terminology, and perhaps (horrors!) some mathematics..

sniff....sniff....do I smell arrogant elitism

Well, first, Uncle Bob, I'm not trying to convince anyone, this is speculative fiction and for discussion. Second -- you've no idea what I know or don't know, so please refrain from such statements as I find them insulting (though I'm sure that was not your intent). This is a discussion about a GAME .

Besides, lets see by a show of hands how many folks here work as Research Physicst??? Physics Professsors??? Theoretical Pysicist???

I find it disheartening the elitism expressed by many sci-fi gamers (and to a greater extent, gamers in general) allocating to themselves intelligence greater than 'normal people' simply by the nature of their hobby or entertainment.

Most folks don't play sci-fi rpg's for the math....or even the science....they play for the story. At it's heart the stories of sci-fi are meaningless to the venue in which they are presented; at their core they speak to basic human functions and emotions. The 'dressing' of these is what appeals to meany of us.

okay -- soap box mode off....

Back to the 'story'

--

I'm not sure what the difference between a wormhole and a dimensional ring is. they accomplish the same job and a wormhole's neck goes through that same higher dimension you speak of as the dimensional ring does. Wormholes use exotic materials as well.

You're right. This addresses Quantum Nonlocality in a simliar fashion to the Stargate you mentioned, which would make the 'dimensional ring' and the 'stargated wormhole' indistinguisable on the surface and only seperated by internal mechanics that, for a game and discussion of this scope are invisible.

The large difference between the two would be the construction and mechanism of how a stargate and dimensional ring would function. The concept of the Dimensional Ring is that of an 'always-on' gate while the concept of a stargate is that of a use initiated connection (though it doesn't have to be).

Also, you're idea of having a gated connection back to Homeworld so a ship has, in essense, an infinite amount of fuel........ quite intriguing.

Exotic matter is simply matter made out of negative energy

Interesting. I have read where exotic matter is used to represent an as yet to be discovered/developed material from a number of authors. but, I've also read negative matter being used to keep wormholes open including suggestions using the Casimir effect on a grand scale to generate the negative energy required as well as other ideas involving the use of cosmic strings.

I think for in-game purposes, however, such devices; when found, would/should be artifacts. The dimensional ring would be a object that is on when discoverd and either mobile or immobile -- perhaps as an adventure thread taking the players to a far disstant section of the galaxy (hmmm....didn't mean to summon the ghost of DS9...I apologize

To conclude I want to repeat -- that none of these ideas are mine -- this is just a discusssion about this method of FTL to be used in our Traveller games and how the mundane aspects differentiate a number of methods to achieve the same in-game purpose, FTL.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Big Tim:
Well, first, Uncle Bob, I'm not trying to convince anyone, this is speculative fiction and for discussion. Second -- you've no idea what I know or don't know, so please refrain from such statements as I find them insulting (though I'm sure that was not your intent). This is a discussion about a GAME .

You said you needed better terminology, not me. And I shouldn't have assumed the bit about mathematics, but I have never met anyone with the mathematics with inadequate terminology. And you still haven't explained how this is different, as you strenuously insist, from a wormhole. Had you just said, "sort of, but I don' want to call it that," I could find no fault.

Besides, lets see by a show of hands how many folks here work as Research Physicst??? Physics Professsors??? Theoretical Pysicist???

Just a BS in Physics and some graduate courses in math. Just enough to know what I don't know. Almost enough to tell legitimate speculation from fantasy.

I consider the stable wormhole to be standard for SF. The "Stargated wormhole" is so implausible I find it difficult to accept. And the idea of a wormhole fuel supply is thirty years old.

If you can find it, you might read Dr. Robert Forward's Indistinguishable From Magic. As an internet source try Dr John Cramer's Alternative View columns.

 

[TKalbfus]

I think for in-game purposes, however, such devices; when found, would/should be artifacts. The dimensional ring would be a object that is on when discoverd and either mobile or immobile -- perhaps as an adventure thread taking the players to a far disstant section of the galaxy (hmmm....didn't mean to summon the ghost of DS9...I apologize


Dimensional ring or wormhole, it doesn't really matter for game purposes. I like to use the generic term Stargate. Unlike a gate, it doesn't open or close, it just stays open all the time. I think encountering stargates as an artifact solves alot of problems. The society that uses them doesn't have to know how to build them. It is a way to travel to distant planets without a spaceship. that is if treated like the TV show Stargate SGI. I don't think the Top Secret treatment that show gives it is very realistic. I think a campaign would be more interesting if the existance of these stargates were common knowledge. the government coverup idea is so old. Another idea comes from a series of books called the Dungeon. The story goes something like this. A couple of 19th century British explorers is exploring deepest darkest Africa, when they stumble onto a stargate. The Stargate connects 19th Century Earth to a bunch of caves and tunnels from a variety of different planets. This dungeon has levels where each level is connected to the previous one by a stargate. These two fellows meet all sorts of monsters, aliens, and people from different times, for instance a girl from the late 21st Century that has her own personal force field, Some world War II Germans. Everything you could possibly imagine including orcs. Its a high tech mixed genere dungeon.

 

[Jame]

This sort of sounds like the type of hyperspace I'm considering for my campaign - the interaction between hyperspace, the ship and the "pocket" of normal space provides enough power to throw the ship through to its destination. Don't ask me to provide physics or mathematics, you'll make my head hurt!

 

[TKalbfus]

Then there is the Stargate found in the old 1970's Buck Rogers TV show. Apparently each system has its own stargate which allows travel to other star systems that also have a stargate. These stargates can't be put on a planetary surface and you need a spaceship to use them. If your going to have a Traveller campaign with these stargates, where should the referee put them? Obviously there in space for a reason, because otherwise the most convient place to put them would be on the surface of an Earthlike planet. One idea is that the Stargates are really material objects that you can manipulate and move around. They are more like a black hole with a large dense lump of exotic matter in its center. The black hole is larger, but its infinite gravity at its center is canceled out by the lump of exotic matter and its antigravitational field. From a distance the blackhole's gravity bends space and its gravity overwhelms the exotic matter, but the exotic matter is uncrushable, it is almost like a blackhole turned inside out. Its repulsive gravity prevents matter from touching it and bends light away from it thus preventing a singularity from forming at the blackhole's center. Also time slows down as you approach this resulting wormhole but it does not stop. It takes about a week to travel through the wormhole because of this, but for the traveler it seems to take only moments, they just notice that a week has passed when they come out the other end. Light also passes through the wormhole and you can see what was on the other end one week ago just by looking through it. Things falling through it will be red shifted and time slowed for the duration of its passage and then blue shifted back and sped up when it emerges on the other side. Wormholes in their natural form would appear spherical from the outside. As one travels around the outside one would see a curved image of what was the region of space 1 week ago outside the other end of the wormhole. This one week value is just an arbitrary value I inserted to make it compatible with traveller's jump drive. But one can have a network of these wormhole openings in pairs in each major starsystem instead of starships equipped with Jump drives. Each wormhole connects only two star systems. If you want to go to another starsystem you need another wormhole. A good way to map this is to take a subsector map and fill in every hex with mainworlds. This map doesn't represent the system's physical location only their wormhole connections in relation to each other. Each hex facing represents one wormhole you must cross to get to the system on the other side. It can be assumed that each wormhole is about 100 AU from the starsystem's primary and each one has at least 90 degrees separation from the other 5 wormholes surrounding the system and each one leads to another star system thats similarly configured, or else they can be arranged in a hexagonal pattern on the system's ecliptic plane.