Mega-Structures IYTU?

[atpollard]

I was encouraged by the numbers in my TL 9 ringworld "thought experiment". I plan to add a "Micro-Ringworld" around a Hot Jupiter gas giant at a planetary scale orbital radius. There are a LOT of systems with crappy homeworlds and valuable gas Giants along important trade routes ... I could see a very large "orbital habitat" circling a Gas Giant like the rings of Saturn!

Infinite energy for a Fusion-centric high TL space-faring society ripe for a High Port Shipyard and Asteroid Mining of the system to support it.

 

[bookwyrm]

I was encouraged by the numbers in my TL 9 ringworld "thought experiment". I plan to add a "Micro-Ringworld" around a Hot Jupiter gas giant at a planetary scale orbital radius. There are a LOT of systems with crappy homeworlds and valuable gas Giants along important trade routes ... I could see a very large "orbital habitat" circling a Gas Giant like the rings of Saturn!

Infinite energy for a Fusion-centric high TL space-faring society ripe for a High Port Shipyard and Asteroid Mining of the system to support it.

Not only is this true, it sounds awesome! Please keep us in the loop if possible.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I plan to add a "Micro-Ringworld" around a Hot Jupiter gas giant at a planetary scale orbital radius.

Or even just a beanstalk (or few) connecting to a ring around a habitable terrestrial planet.

For those of you who aren't anime otaku ... such a location is literally the setting for the first ~6 minutes or so of the 1986 film Dirty Pair: Project Eden ... where the orbital ring was built around what looks like a terrestrial+orbital resort world/tourist trap. I would definitely use the ambiance of those first 6 minutes of the film as inspiration for any (completed) orbital ring projects in Traveller.

Needless to say, everything was FINE ... until the Lovely Angels of the 3WA came calling ...

 

[kilemall]

Or even just a beanstalk (or few) connecting to a ring around a habitable terrestrial planet.

For those of you who aren't anime otaku ... such a location is literally the setting for the first ~6 minutes or so of the 1986 film Dirty Pair: Project Eden ... where the orbital ring was built around what looks like a terrestrial+orbital resort world/tourist trap. I would definitely use the ambiance of those first 6 minutes of the film as inspiration for any (completed) orbital ring projects in Traveller.

Needless to say, everything was FINE ... until the Lovely Angels of the 3WA came calling ...

AI is not your friend.

 

[GypsyComet]

I was encouraged by the numbers in my TL 9 ringworld "thought experiment". I plan to add a "Micro-Ringworld" around a Hot Jupiter gas giant at a planetary scale orbital radius. There are a LOT of systems with crappy homeworlds and valuable gas Giants along important trade routes ... I could see a very large "orbital habitat" circling a Gas Giant like the rings of Saturn!

Infinite energy for a Fusion-centric high TL space-faring society ripe for a High Port Shipyard and Asteroid Mining of the system to support it.

Since Jupiter is a talented asteroid and comet catcher, I suspect we would see a similar phenomenon in other systems. That could limit the number that would be good candidates for halos like this.

For clarity, my choice of terminology: an artificial ring around a star is a Ringworld, an artificial ring around a planet (attached to it by beanstalks or not) is a Halo, and a ring structure that orbits free around either but does not have a celestial/terrestrial body at its own center is an Orbital (from Banks).

 

[ManOfGrey]

From High Guard, it is possible to construct a hull of 1 million dTons, therefore we will construct a space station of 1 million dTons that is exactly 1 deck tall with wingwalls at the ends [forming a giant "U" like a floating drydock section]. The Station will be 1 km wide x 4.6 km long. It will have just enough PP and MD for station keeping and Grav Plates (1 G artificial Gravity). The station will be constructed at the Class B Shipyard and transported into position in circular orbit 0 where it will orbit the star. The 4.6 km length of the station will be slightly curved with a 0.2 AU radius.

I really admire where you are coming from as far as your concept goes... specifically using 1 million tond starship sections to build a ringworld. But your math may be a little off.

1AU = 150,000,000 km (150 million kilometers in radius)
0.2 AU = 30,000,000 km (30 million kilometers in radius)
This makes the circumference of your ringworld 2 x pi x radius = 188,495,400 km (188 million, 495 thousand, 4 hundred km in circumference.)
(Not 29,900 km, 29 thousand, 9 hundred km in circumference.)

So that would take 40,977,260.9 sections, (40 million, 977 thousand, 260.9 sections,) each 4.6km long.
(Not 6,500, 6 thousand, 5 hundred sections.)

• 260 billion credits per Station.

260 billion credits per section (260 x 10^9) times 40,977,260.9 sections (40.9772609 x 10^6) = 1.0654 x 10^19 Credits.
(That's 10,065,400,000,000,000,000 Credits)

That would be 10 quintillion, 65 quadrillion, 400 trillion Credits... and some change.

 

[atpollard]

But your math may be a little off.

I stand corrected. I misread the table in Book 6 Scout for Orbit 0. The 29.9 (000 km) was RADIUS, not circumference. [They listed Radius twice, once in KM and once in AU, and I misread them as radius in AU and circumference in thousands of kilometers - observation bias: seeing what you are searching for whether it is there or not ... like waiting for the doorbell and thinking you heard it ring.]

 

[atpollard]

That would be 10 quintillion, 65 quadrillion, 400 trillion Credits... and some change.

... however, the cost per inhabitant would be the same:

• 145,000 credits per resident (Broad Acre City) [14,500 credits down & Cr 800/mo x 360 months] to 10,000 credits per resident (Modern Urban) [1000 credits down & Cr 60/mo x 360 months].

Revised: POP 13 to POP 16 at build-out.

 

[casquilho]

That's 10,065,400,000,000,000,000 Credits

Now that is one heck of a mortgage.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Now that is one heck of a mortgage.

One of those "don't spend it all in one place" bits of advice?

 

[atpollard]

I know that these big numbers seem frightening to some, but here is a little perspective:
The average POP for a Traveller word is POP 7 (tens of millions) to POP 9 (billions).

Let us place them into houses in the USA (where I have data on). The US currently averages 1000 sf per person for Residential construction at $150 per sf. That comes out to $150,000 per person (Cr 30,000 per person) for housing. An average world spends Cr 300,000,000,000 to Cr 30,000,000,000,000 just housing its population on a Garden World [a LOT more if the atmosphere is tainted or thin, etc].

Now let's build them a place to go shopping. The US averages 23 sf per person for Retail Space, constructed at about $371 per sf. That comes out to $8,533 per person (Cr 1700 per person) for shopping. An average world spends Cr 17,000,000,000 to Cr 1,700,000,000,000 just providing shopping centers for its population on a Garden World.

Now let's build them an office to go work in. Planning guidelines start with 175 sf per employee for estimating required office space. Since the "workforce" is about 60% of the total population, so the "per capita" required office space is only 105 sf per person at about $400 per sf. That comes out to $42,000 per person (Cr 8400 per person) for offices to work in. An average world spends Cr 84,000,000,000 to Cr 8,400,000,000,000 just providing work offices for its population on a Garden World.

Adding up Housing (Cr 30,000), Shopping (Cr 1700) and Work (Cr 8400), the average world invested Cr 40,100 per person in its cities (without beginning to examine roads, parks , schools and the effects of a non-Garden world). For the AVERAGE Traveller world, that comes out to Cr 401,000,000,000 [POP 7] to Cr 40,100,000,000,000 [POP 9].

The 1 Million dTon RINGWORLD Space Station would add Cr 10,000 per person to that figure (the Cr 223 per person / month Garden World colony mortgage becomes a Cr 279 per person / month Ring World colony mortgage!)

 

[Spinward Flow]

The average POP for a Traveller word is POP 7 (tens of millions) to POP 9 (billions).

Uh ... the bell curve average for 2D6-2 is ... 5.
Population: 7+ requires a roll of 9+ on 2D6, which is NOT an "average roll" from 2D6.

 

[TamsinP]

Uh ... the bell curve average for 2D6-2 is ... 5.
Population: 7+ requires a roll of 9+ on 2D6, which is NOT an "average roll" from 2D6.

That's the average Population Code, not the average population. If you calculate the actual populations for each code and take the average of that, then you get the following results:

Population Modifier* =1 - average = 31,175,895 (pop code = 7)
Population Modifier = 5 - average = 155,879,474 (pop code = 8)
Population Modifier = 9 - average = 280,583,053 (pop code = 8)

*applied to first digit only

If you take the range of potential values (and assume an even distribution) for each population code, you get an average world population of 171,467,421 (pop code = 8).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Oh, so now we're grading on a logarithmic curve, instead of using the UWPs directly?
Well why didn't someone SAY SO?

 

[TamsinP]

Oh, so now we're grading on a logarithmic curve, instead of using the UWPs directly?
Well why didn't someone SAY SO?

I hate to break this to you, but:

Log10 (1) = 0
Log10 (10) = 1
Log10 (100) = 2
Log10 (1,000) = 3
Log10 (10,000) = 4
Log10 (100,000) = 5
Log10 (1,000,000) = 6
Log10 (10,000,000) = 7
Log10 (100,000,000) = 8
Log10 (1,000,000,000) = 9
Log10 (10,000,000,000) = 10


Hmmm....
Could the Pop Code of the UWP possibly be logarithmic?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Log10 (1) = 0
Log10 (10) = 1
Log10 (100) = 2
Log10 (1,000) = 3
Log10 (10,000) = 4
Log10 (100,000) = 5
Log10 (1,000,000) = 6
Log10 (10,000,000) = 7
Log10 (100,000,000) = 8
Log10 (1,000,000,000) = 9
Log10 (10,000,000,000) = 10

Add them all up and divide by 11 results and ...
11,111,111,111 / 11 = 1,010,101,010.09090909 (Population: 9 is the "average" sector wide)

Therefore, the "average" population is slightly over 1 billion.

Or you could go for a "divide by 36" averaging method, where you factor in the chances to roll each result on 2D6-2 on the UWP codes.

• 0 = 1 * 1 = 1
• 1 = 10 * 2 = 20
• 2 = 100 * 3 = 300
• 3 = 1000 * 4 = 4000
• 4 = 10,000 * 5 = 50,000
• 5 = 100,000 * 6 = 600,000
• 6 = 1,000,000 * 5 = 5,000,000
• 7 = 10,000,000 * 4 = 40,000,000
• 8 = 100,000,000 * 3 = 300,000,000
• 9 = 1,000,000,000 * 2 = 2,000,000,000
• A = 10,000,000,000 * 1 = 10,000,000,000

Add them all up and divide by 36 possible results and ...
12,345,654,321 / 36 = 342,934,842.25 (Population: 8 is the "average" sector wide)

Therefore, the "average" population is slightly over 340 million ... it's just the "distribution" that is wildly uneven.



In other words, HOW you justify finding the answers that you do will matter a great deal to the results you discover.
Depending on the question you're asking, the "average" UWP code for Population can be 5, 8 or 9 (as demonstrated above).

Remember kids, 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

 

[atpollard]

... and to think, all I did was look at the Traveller Map and observe that the median was about "8" with a LOT of POP 7 UWPs and a LOT of POP 9 UWPs and just stated the EMPIRICAL observation that the average was about POP 7-9.

[I feel like such a slacker now.]

 

[Rupert]

Add them all up and divide by 11 results and ...
11,111,111,111 / 11 = 1,010,101,010.09090909 (Population: 9 is the "average" sector wide)

Therefore, the "average" population is slightly over 1 billion.

Or you could go for a "divide by 36" averaging method, where you factor in the chances to roll each result on 2D6-2 on the UWP codes.

• 0 = 1 * 1 = 1
• 1 = 10 * 2 = 20
• 2 = 100 * 3 = 300
• 3 = 1000 * 4 = 4000
• 4 = 10,000 * 5 = 50,000
• 5 = 100,000 * 6 = 600,000
• 6 = 1,000,000 * 5 = 5,000,000
• 7 = 10,000,000 * 4 = 40,000,000
• 8 = 100,000,000 * 3 = 300,000,000
• 9 = 1,000,000,000 * 2 = 2,000,000,000
• A = 10,000,000,000 * 1 = 10,000,000,000

Add them all up and divide by 36 possible results and ...
12,345,654,321 / 36 = 342,934,842.25 (Population: 8 is the "average" sector wide)

Therefore, the "average" population is slightly over 340 million ... it's just the "distribution" that is wildly uneven.



In other words, HOW you justify finding the answers that you do will matter a great deal to the results you discover.
Depending on the question you're asking, the "average" UWP code for Population can be 5, 8 or 9 (as demonstrated above).

Remember kids, 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.

And then there's the multiplier, which is a flat d9, so averages 5. Adding that little bit of extra detail in back in the day multiplied the population of known space by five, just like that.

 

[atpollard]

And then there's the multiplier, which is a flat d9, so averages 5. Adding that little bit of extra detail in back in the day multiplied the population of known space by five, just like that.

An interesting fact about Human populations is that STABLE populations tend to cluster around a "multiplier" of "1", "2" or "5" with any other Population value likely rapidly rising or falling towards one of those stable "multipliers". Go find a list of CITIES in any State or Country and see how many start with "1, 2 or 5" compared to any other number. Try the same for TOWNS. It is an empirical quirk of human populations.

[... that was your "worthless fact of the day".]

 

[Condottiere]

I thought they tended to stabilize around food production, and destabilize when that drops.

Rumour has it, the second largest settlement tends to be half the population of the largest.