Disasters and Rescues

[kafka47]

Agreed that planetary wide disasters are rare. But, one has to remember on most worlds, they are sparsely populated. If the major urban centre(s) got hit with something and the week time delay would be part of the emergency planning.

I could see the Imperium via the Scout service sending emergency relief, if requested by the planetary government.

More often than not, I would see that Megacorporations would be the first ones on the ground trying to renegotiate trade deals in their favour by providing timely relief but at the cost of expanding their concessions. So, when the Scouts do finally arrive after about a month's delay - reconstruction aid from the Imperium would be viewed as minimal and only there for the most needy cases.

Some exceptions would naturally apply - for instance, if the world was of strategic importance or that there was an Imperial presence beyond the Starport - which would mean regular couriers could carry that information closer to a C&C hence aid could get there faster. But, again, the Imperium would dependent upon the Megacorporations to charter the items. Which the Megacorps would exact a price higher than just the financial.

 

[McPerth]

I could see the Imperium via the Scout service sending emergency relief, if requested by the planetary government.

More often than not, I would see that Megacorporations would be the first ones on the ground trying to renegotiate trade deals in their favour by providing timely relief but at the cost of expanding their concessions. So, when the Scouts do finally arrive after about a month's delay - reconstruction aid from the Imperium would be viewed as minimal and only there for the most needy cases.

Some exceptions would naturally apply - for instance, if the world was of strategic importance or that there was an Imperial presence beyond the Starport - which would mean regular couriers could carry that information closer to a C&C hence aid could get there faster. But, again, the Imperium would dependent upon the Megacorporations to charter the items. Which the Megacorps would exact a price higher than just the financial.

Sure all of them whould try to halp. Megacorps as part of expanding their business and IISS/Navy as part of their job (I think both whould respond, the closer the first).

Even so, the travel time whould mean at least two months lull before first aids arrive from outsystem (of course other communities on system (high port, colonies, prospectors, etc) may help, unless a system wide emergency (so far I only think on Maghiz as such an event).

This means thet, to put japanese emergency as an example, now help whould be assembling (if on a one jump system), or in jumpspace at most. I wonder if they whould be a great help as disaster relief help... (of course it whould as reconstruction help).

 

[whartung]

I guess I don't understand what a "planetary disaster" is.

Are we simply talking about a disaster that requires off planet aid? Even if it's because a landing party got surrounded in an abandoned processing facility by hostile xenomorphs?

This doesn't sound much different from "O Brother, Where Art Thou":

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190590/quotes?qt0404012

I mean, seriously, is it something akin to the 1925 serum run to Nome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925_serum_run_to_Nome) that is being discussed? Because I don't conflate "2 weeks out of touch" as the same as "planetary disaster".

Yea, it's a remote village, cut off from civilization (in this case by a week long travel, but they at least had "instant" comms), and without outside aid, a bad situation will just get worse, but hardly "planetary".

Did Amelia Earhart suffer a "planetary disaster" when here plane ran in to trouble?

Just trying to understand the definitions here.

 

[Hame]

Don't just send "help"...

Here's an additional thought for this discussion.

One of the ironies of disaster relief in the real world is that the "help" that comes from abroad may be more of a hindrance than a help.

The classic example is of a first world team arriving in a third world disaster area. This team proves to have few skills translatable to a disaster zone or third world situation, limited ability to sustain themselves logistically, and subsequently each team member consumes amounts of food, water and fuel that could sustain several members of the local population. Resources that end up being sourced at the location of the disaster. [The classic exception are the armed forces who bring their own food, water purification, fuel and shelters. They then bring extra for the locals and don't complain about sleeping rough or the lack of hot showers*].

Thus in the Traveller universe a disaster planet/region might sustain a second hit several weeks down the line when the rescue mission jumps into system without the correct filter masks/vaccinations or whatever.

*OK, servicemen/women grumble all the time but usually not in the face of those worse off, and such complaints are usually quashed by derision and don't derail the rescue effort.

 

[iron warrior]

I'd argue that the scope is simply to large to consider. A planet wide emergency simply doesn't make much sense.

I should say that a SUDDEN planet wide emergency doesn't make sense, outside of war of course.

I guess there's the ever popular rogue asteroid problem for systems without proper detection equipment. But, frankly, if the problem is "planet wide" then it's simply to big to be managed in any large scale way. There is too much energy involved, too quickly.

Otherwise it's not a planet wide disaster at the beginning and plans and processes can begin to manage and mitigate the problem before whatever it is becomes planet wide.

Considering that all of our natural disasters are localized, we have options to call upon the resources of the unaffected areas. If you have a natural disaster that affects, say, a small colony, it may not be planet wide, but it's affecting "everybody" and there are no external resources upon which to call.

The two week turnaround for outside help is the lowest possible number, and it's really not a realistic number for any real help. The only way that the two week number would be reasonable is if the system happened to have a handy neighbor that had enough supplies AND space lift capacity to respond immediately and effectively. Six to eight weeks I think is a more reasonable number before any real aid can start showing up. The comm times are simply too long as soon as you have to do any coordination across more than one system.

Hmm, I'd offer as a counterpoint the idea of a planet that was mostly ocea with perhaps just one relatively small continent, thus a plausible sudden disaster could indeed be a planetary disaster as it's affecting all the inhabitable area of the planet.

 

[iron warrior]

Agreed that planetary wide disasters are rare. But, one has to remember on most worlds, they are sparsely populated. If the major urban centre(s) got hit with something and the week time delay would be part of the emergency planning.

I could see the Imperium via the Scout service sending emergency relief, if requested by the planetary government.

More often than not, I would see that Megacorporations would be the first ones on the ground trying to renegotiate trade deals in their favour by providing timely relief but at the cost of expanding their concessions.

Look up "the shock doctrine" to see this despicable and contemptible practice being enacted in the real world today. if you never heard of the shock doctrine, you apparently evolved the concept separately from the author of the shock doctrine and may not be aware it's practiced in the real world.

Hmm, traveller idea time: Maybe the players could be involved in a situation like this looking to limit the influence the megacorps manage to wring out of the victims of a disaster. Perhaps the players are offering independent aid and megacorp thugs are trying to stop them?

 

[kafka47]

Look up "the shock doctrine" to see this despicable and contemptible practice being enacted in the real world today. if you never heard of the shock doctrine, you apparently evolved the concept separately from the author of the shock doctrine and may not be aware it's practiced in the real world.

Hmm, traveller idea time: Maybe the players could be involved in a situation like this looking to limit the influence the megacorps manage to wring out of the victims of a disaster. Perhaps the players are offering independent aid and megacorp thugs are trying to stop them?

No need to look up the shock doctrine...it is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) IMTU. No, I have seen first hand what shock doctrines have done in the former Yugoslavia.

Yes, players may be advance of the megacorp onslaught but having them mobilize enough resources to effect an entire world would be the challenge. I suppose one could use the celebrity rules combined with dynasty to give players some leverage. But, then you might end up with Caine & Connery film - The Man Who Would Be King.

However, a minor disaster, yes, I would allow the players some sort of heroic reward of them standing up against the Megacorps.

 

[BytePro]

I guess I don't understand what a "planetary disaster" is.

Yep - 'Planetary disaster' is too ambiguous .

Failure to qualify the scale in terms of beings (i.e. single sophont vs billions) and physical scope (x% surface/atmo of a given planetary diameter) - means personal interpretations will vary immensely.

In the context of this thread, the only thing that can be said, is it seems to imply a sophont related emergency related to the bulk of a large population of a world (ecological or otherwise) as the OP specifically stated 'if a vast majority of an important world had such a disaster' - implying a large population (and maybe a large part of a planet - but the question was not qualified sufficiently to get the unambiguous meaning of 'vast majority'.).

Examples of small colonies really don't seem relevant - the scale is too small.

However, using real world data (well, from: http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/largest-cities-density-125.html), one can take the population density of Mumbai, India (29,650 per sq km) in an area like that of New York city (8,683 sq km) and one ends up with a population just over 1/4 billion (257,450,950) in one location.

If one wants to equate that to the est. population of Earth - double the length of the city boundaries (thus a four fold increase in population = 1 billion sophonts) and make the city 7 levels deep (~7 billion sophonts).

Now natural events (like an earthquake, tsunami, solar impact, etc.) or sophont act (bio-terrorism, revolution, etc.) could 'believably' provide a 'planetary disaster'.

More generically, larger physical scale disasters from the likes of hyper-velocity (extrasolar origin) asteroid impacts or immense supernova radiation (likely to affect other systems) are entirely plausible means of instant 'planetary disasters', despite higher TLs.

As to response - well somebody would always have 'a plan'. And somebody will always take advantage of the situation. But any really useful answer is gonna be on a case-by-case basis. I.e. - is evacuation required?, is medical quarantine required?, is the disaster still ongoing (war; radiation; etc.)?, what information is available?, was help formally requested?, would help be opposed?, who's paying?, who's going (civilians; military; officials)?

 

[Garyius2003]

I think a lot of the things America does today through its military would also hold true for Traveller and the 3I.

People need medical care, the 1337th Division of the Unified Army of the Imperium has lots of medical stuff and field freezers ready to go on ship with an embark plan. Ditto for water and rations.

Add in a few civil engineer battalions and a MP regiment and you can help a lot of folks just as they start dying from unclean water or no food.

It seems to take America about a week to get really on the ground, so waiting 2-1/2 weeks for aid isn't all that bad. Waiting through two or three jumps for the help to arrive, though, would see the bodies really pile up.

 

[iron warrior]

I don't know if this has been done before, but all this thread's talk made me think of something for traveller called "PEMA", Planetary Emergency Management Agency" that would be charged with responding to planetary disasters and emergencies.

Maybe each sector would be required to keep a PEMA force in reserve, with extremely large, unarmed ships designed to respond to large scale emergencies, stocked with non perishable food, supplies and facilities to make medicine, disasater relief supplies, medical facilites, ready to build shelters, research labs to fight diseases, etc.

Depending on your traveller universe, PEMA could be an hyonestly humane agency meant to respond to catastrophre, a boondoggle sucking up tax money, an evil conspiracy like some people accuse FEMA of being or a new career option for players.

 

[Icosahedron]

What difference would it make if the planet in question were interdicted - a reservation world. Contact and rescue, or no contact for any reason?

 

[kafka47]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]interdicted - a reservation world[/FONT]

Depends. Why was it [FONT=arial,helvetica]interdicted? Hostile alien culture, probably not. plants that can have psi drug in abundance - probably, as that is of military importance.
[/FONT]

 

[Icosahedron]

What about good old Prime Directive - non-interference with a low tech culture?

 

[FreeTrav]

Did you ever notice that whenever the Prime Directive came up, they always ended up violating it?...

 

[Icosahedron]

Yep, noticed that. Plenty of room for improvement, then...

 

[kafka47]

What about good old Prime Directive - non-interference with a low tech culture?

What Prime Directive? There is no Prime Directive in Traveller...if Interstellarms wants to sell Fusion Guns to natives, so that they can get a trade concession from Tribe A who will use the guns to wipe out Tribe B. It is none of the concern of the Imperium. What they might try to do ensure that each fusion weapon only has 10 shots - that way a "natural" aristocracy can form which can be welcomed into the Imperium as planetary government. Creating dependent relationships is what the Imperium is all about.

 

[rancke]

What Prime Directive? There is no Prime Directive in Traveller...if Interstellarms wants to sell Fusion Guns to natives, so that they can get a trade concession from Tribe A who will use the guns to wipe out Tribe B. It is none of the concern of the Imperium.

Unless the Imperium makes it its concern. The Scouts have a tendency to interdict worlds for the protection of local low-tech cultures. But it's not an automatic thing the way a Prime Directive would make it. Any Imperial organization (almost always the Navy or the Scouts) that want to interdict a world has to get a member of the Imperial family to sign off on it.

Also, it isn't an either/or thing. The Imperium can allow access to a world while still restricting imports and interaction with the locals in whatever ways that seem good to it.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

The Scouts have a tendency to interdict worlds for the protection of local low-tech cultures.

Those worlds get Red zone designation.

 

[rancke]

Those worlds get Red zone designation.

Only for full interdicts. Worlds with lesser restrictions (e.g. pre-1105 Marastan) would not be red-zoned.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Only for full interdicts. Hans

Correct. Full interdicts was what I was referring to.