Domain <> Archduchy?

[Garnfellow]

The Domains of the Imperium were established by Emperor Artemus in 72 during the Pacification Campaigns. In 76 the Emperor assigned archdukes to all of the first six domains save Sol. The Domain of Sol includes Diaspora, Old Expanses, Sol, and Alpha Crucis sectors and very little would have been incorporated into the Imperium in 72.

In 704 Empress Margaret I grants a charter for the Solomani Autonomous Region, which encompasses all of the Solomani Rim and Alpha Crucis and approximately half of Diaspora and Old Expanses sectors.

In 716 the Archduchy of Sol lapses, after the death of the incumbent leaves no heirs who are not members of the Solomani Party. The Archduchy remains vacant until 1003, when Arielle Adair is elevated to the title following the Rim War.

When the Archduchy lapsed, what happened to the Domain of Sol -- did it remain an Imperial domain on paper, but admistered by the Domain of Sylea? Or was it effectively dissolved?

 

[MThompson016]

Considering how after the Civil War, the Archdukes and Domains had little power, I would say it would have been not unlike the situation in the Domain of Deneb, which existed for several centuries without an Archduke.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Doing some work on this right now actually. Rebellion Sourcebook states an Archduke of Sol Named Adair (pg. 45). So an actual domain and an actual Archduke.
During Rebellion? From Rebellion Sourcerbook Tranian of Gateway and Adair of Sol declare for Lucan. So does Norris of Deneb (sort of there). However how a place like the Vassalry Judiciate is created in Hard Times lends insight as to Lucan's management style:

The Judidate grew out of the ducal succession wars of the mid-1120s that resulted from Lucan's gutting of the Imperial Moot. These wars induded the forces of ex-Duke Gerald of Alurza, ex-Duke Withers of Pasdaruu, pro-Lucan Duke Ilirikgaadli of Sufren (who had been banished from that planet), three new planetary dukes sent by Lucan, several megacorporations, and the civic governments of several worlds. As these wars ground on, several claimants allied themselves with planetary commercial interests to keep their claims alive. These alliances became dominated by the commercial interests, and gave birth to the Judidate, based at Backman (2209), which retains the embittered, unseated nobles as figureheads. - Astrogators' Guide to the Diaspora Sector pg. 3

Looking at the 1120 maps, Adair effectively loses half his territory to the Solomani, so he may have a title without a territory. Or loses both.

 

[Garnfellow]

Doing some work on this right now actually. Rebellion Sourcebook states an Archduke of Sol Named Adair (pg. 45). So an actual domain and an actual Archduke.

Yup, based on GURPS Traveller: Rim of Fire and Nobles, he's Archduke Kieran Langos Adair, great-grandson of Arielle Adair, the Grand Admiral of the Imperial forces during the Rim War. He ascended to the Archduchy upon the death of his father in 1104. This information is echoed in Mongoose Traveller: Solomani Rim.

During Rebellion? From Rebellion Sourcerbook Tranian of Gateway and Adair of Sol declare for Lucan. So does Norris of Deneb (sort of there). . . . Looking at the 1120 maps, Adair effectively loses half his territory to the Solomani, so he may have a title without a territory. Or loses both.

In the GURPS alternate timeline, the Archduke declares in 1112 he is moving the capital of the domain to Muan Gwi, which becomes the new capital in 1114 though he doesn't take up residence until 1115.

It's unclear if this also happens in the Rebellion timeline. I don't believe there's anything in the MegaTraveller materials that supports the Muan Gwi capital (and T5SS data is circa 1105) but nothing that contradicts it, either. The Mongoose Solomani Rim book, also set in 1105, lends some support to this GURPS storyline.

This is important because the Vegan District becomes the central pocket of Imperial resistance in the Rim during the Rebellion. Archduke Adair could have been directing the effort from his capital on Muan Gwi.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Astrogator's Guide to the Diaspora Sector shows that in 1124, Lucan still has many worlds in a clear path all the way to Shumisdi and Madoc subsectors and thus access to Solomani Rim sector so it is possible that the Domain still existed. Then.

By 1128, the Hard Times UWP allegiance indicate Lucan gives up Disapora sector. No world is under Lucan's sway.

The 1248 books do not mention the Domain of Sol or Archduke Adair. The situation in 1130 just before Virus hit was that the Federation of Daibei and the Solomani set up proxy states in Diaspora fight each other by 1128 and Margaret's Domain signed the Treaty of Altair formally ending hostilities with the Solomani effective 001-1130. As written, the Solomani were doing this to reduce the number of fronts so they were fighting (they even started operations on the Hivers!) so they could concentrate on finally subduing the Vegan Autonomous District.

So the Vegans were political entity until Virus, but the Domain of Sol likely perished by 1128.

 

[Taav]

In the GURPS alternate timeline, the Archduke ... take up residence [on Muan Gwi] 1115. .It's unclear if this also happens in the Rebellion timeline...

The move to Muan Gwi appears unlikely to have happened in the Rebellion timeline. Most other resources point to the Libert as the Sector Captial of the Diaspora. Libert is also identified as the seat of the archduke and his domain.

Even now, the Traveller Map shows Muan Gwi as a subsector duke's residence with both the sector and domain capitals placed on Libert.

 

[whulorigan]

Even now, the Traveller Map shows Muan Gwi as a subsector duke's residence with both the sector and domain capitals placed on Libert.

The nominal date for the default TravellerMap data is 1105.

 

[Spartan159]

There may be some information on this subject in the MT adventure Arrival: Vengeance as I believe they pass through that area.

 

[aramis]

One thing I've argued with the late Hans over for years - use of the terms County, Duchy, and Archduchy. They are NOT used in non-GURPS canon, and only used in that in books he's influenced.

There's a connotation for the titular forms (Barony, Viscounty, County, Duchy, Archduchy): They imply jointly Executive, Judicial, and Legislative authority over civil law of the title holder over the entirety of the fief. An Archduchy is that area where the archduke is the law-giver and chief law enforcer.

The Domain is not the Archduke's Fief. Each Archduke has a fief - that's legitimately his archduchy with all the execultive, judicial, and legislative authority. The Domain is a See, not a Fief; an area overseen but not ruled by the see holder.

Traditionally, we talk about Sees in ecclesiastical systems - specifically bishoprics - but some nobles had sees as well. Especially Viceroyalties.
Bishoprics are important heraldically - bishops traditionally had a fief and a see, just like a Traveller noble. And the see was a diocese, while the fief was the bishopric/abbacy etc.

 

[Whipsnade]

The Domain is a See, not a Fief; an area overseen but not ruled by the see holder.

How many times did I have the same discussion with Our Absent Friend...

... and with the same results!

(I really miss Hans. Really, really, really, miss him. )

Traditionally, we talk about Sees in ecclesiastical systems - specifically bishoprics - but some nobles had sees as well. Especially Viceroyalties.

Exactly.

When I read Schroeder's Transformation of European Politics 1763 - 1848 a few decades ago, the Imperium's system of governance finally made "sense" to me. His explanation of contrasts between the legalities, foundational precepts, and governing mechanisms of territorial supremacy and territorial sovereignty used the Rhineland bishoprics as an example.

 

[Condottiere]

The fief is meant to be a gift that allows you to finance your lifestyle, and goes with the job title.

It could include a nature park, where you have exclusive hunting rights, and you can shoot trespassers.

 

[whulorigan]

There's a connotation for the titular forms (Barony, Viscounty, County, Duchy, Archduchy): They imply jointly Executive, Judicial, and Legislative authority over civil law of the title holder over the entirety of the fief. An Archduchy is that area where the archduke is the law-giver and chief law enforcer.

The Domain is not the Archduke's Fief. Each Archduke has a fief - that's legitimately his archduchy with all the execultive, judicial, and legislative authority. The Domain is a See, not a Fief; an area overseen but not ruled by the see holder.

Traditionally, we talk about Sees in ecclesiastical systems - specifically bishoprics - but some nobles had sees as well. Especially Viceroyalties.
Bishoprics are important heraldically - bishops traditionally had a fief and a see, just like a Traveller noble. And the see was a diocese, while the fief was the bishopric/abbacy etc.

In GT:Nobles, I believe they use the term "Demesne" the way you are using "See". Or am I misunderstanding their and/or your usage?

(And yes, I realize that historically a Noble's desmene was the part of his fief that was held by the noble directly rather than having been subinfeudinated to a vassal).

 

[whulorigan]

When I read Schroeder's Transformation of European Politics 1763 - 1848 a few decades ago, the Imperium's system of governance finally made "sense" to me. His explanation of contrasts between the legalities, foundational precepts, and governing mechanisms of territorial supremacy and territorial sovereignty used the Rhineland bishoprics as an example.

Thanks for the bibliographic reference.

 

[Whipsnade]

Thanks for the bibliographic reference.

Glad to do and hope you enjoy it.

Schroeder also uses the Austrian Hapsburgs ultimately futile efforts to reform their territories in the Low Countries known as the Austrian Netherlands which had been ceded to them in 1715. While Austria was supreme in the region, it wasn't sovereign. Anything Austria wanted to do also had to be agreed to, depending which rights and prerogatives were effected, by parties as various as the UK, Prussia, France, and Holland.

The Bourbons faced a similar issue with many of their Rhineland territories and elsewhere in France itself. While the Bourbon king was supreme in a given Rhineland bishopric, he was not sovereign. Along with the bishop owing fealty to the Pope and Holy Roman Emperor in addition to the Bourbons at Versailles, other groups had rights, prerogatives, and privileges within the bishopric as well. Any changes, good or bad, threatened that crisscrossed welter of rights, prerogatives, and privileges and were naturally opposed. Making matters worse, the same situation held true through most of France if not to the same degree.

While claiming to be absolute monarchs, the Bourbons outside of their personal holdings couldn't impose or change laws, taxes, and tariffs without involving a number of people, organizations, and governments some of which were outside of France. Everyone knew the finances of the government needed to be fixed, but very few wanted to give up their rights, prerogatives, and privileges to do so. The Bourbons lurched along for decades with their only financial successes also being hated ones; a monopoly on the new import tobacco and a physical tariff wall built around Paris to tax the goods passing through.

The Republic cut through this, idiotic from our perspective, Gordian knot by ditching the old idea of territorial supremacy and asserting territorial sovereignty over the entirety of France wiping out all the rights, prerogatives, and privileges previously enjoyed people, organizations, and governments inside and outside of France. That bishop in his Rhinleand see, for example, would no longer be able to thwart an edict or law from Paris by merely asserting that the edict or law adversely impacted his fealty to Rome or the HRE.

Instead of the "First among equals" territorial supremacy model, it was now a "One master only" territorial sovereignty model so you better obey.

 

[aramis]

In GT:Nobles, I believe they use the term "Demesne" the way you are using "See". Or am I misunderstanding their and/or your usage?

(And yes, I realize that historically a Noble's desmene was the part of his fief that was held by the noble directly rather than having been subinfeudinated to a vassal).

If they are, they've got it backwards. Really, GT:N is a BAD trainwreck.

Historically speaking:
The Demense was the portion of the not allowed to be subinfeudated. It was also sometimes exempted from certain taxes. The fiefholder was the sum total of the law for it as well, unless he chose to hire officers for it, but he could never enfeoff someone with it. It's purpose was to support the lord and his personal household.

The fief was what one was the government of. It could be subinfeudated, and the Lord was still the government.

The See was what they had oversight but were not the government of. In Western European systems, it was usually non-extant for the lesser landed peers, with some of the greater peers having martial authority as an additional title - they could levy in the king's name from the other great Barons. In Britain, certain Duchies had oversight over the local Barons (including the Great Barons - Counts and Viscounts)... but their word was not law in those Baron's fiefs.

Technically, all of England is the fief of the English crown... Subinfeudated to the local county governments now, rather than the Lords thereof; most modern british nobles have no technical fief besides their demense... their county/duchy is a see...

Plus, Canon tells us the names of the levels of Imperial government: Subsector, Sector, Domain, and Imperium. A scant few worlds also have "local" - Terra, prior to 1108, for example...

 

[Condottiere]

It's based on loyalty, on the assumption that the land is granted by the crown in return for service and acknowledgement of overlordship.

The problem is when the tenant becomes more powerful than his sovereign, the test case being the Dukes of Normandy.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There has never been a single feudal system. Each country has its own system that has evolved through time.

Imperial, French, English, or Polish feudalism started and evolved in different ways.

The Swedish nobility has never been feudal and has no fiefs or jurisdiction over their lands or tenants. In the middle ages you became a noble by owning a lot of land, not the other way around.

The English system is extreme since it started with the claim of complete ownership of all England by right of conquest.



The Third Imperium is likely to work more like the British or Roman Empires with a patchwork of legal systems and local, regional, and centralised rule. Different territories have different systems. As systems, states, or larger territories were incorporated into the Imperium, voluntary or not, they may have more or less differences in their legal systems.

The Sylean Worlds, the Vegan Autonomous District, the Lancian Cultural Region, Antares, the Vilani Cultural Region, and the reconquered part of the Solomani Autonomous Region are likely to work in very different ways.