Drafting a PC Doctor during the 5FW.. mean, or Realistic...

[rancke]

I disagree and think there is evidence.

First, "Other" in CT LBB1 is not Criminals. At least not entirely, certainly not exclusively.

I suppose it's possible to imagine various Imperial services that the 'Other' career could cover. Ministry of Justice, for example. But that sure doesn't fit with the -1 to social level in the Personal Development Table. I submit that no member of any Imperial Service that 'Other' might cover would suffer a loss of society's esteem for being a member of said service. Not even a drafted member. I think that minus to SL shows that the Others are if not criminals then at least misfits.

Second, since being drafted in CT LBB1 carries with it the ineligibility of commission during the first term (for services* that have ranks) it sure sounds like a military draft simulation (while also being obviously a game mechanic).

I'll give you that one. It's evidence. But it's very weak evidence, unsupported by any other evidence, and quite unlikely. 'Other' certainly doesn't cover any military service, which makes it unlikely that any military draft would deliver part of the intake to them. Just as it's conceivable, but fairly unlikely, that the megacorporations and corporations would require a draft to get their crewmen. "Oh, Jones, I hear the latest draft has arrived. Make sure SuSAG doesn't make off with all the good ones."

* services, all 6 basic careers are termed services, which certainly implies Imperial Service in the OTU, and even pre-OTU implies that even those in the "Other" career path(s) who may end up with criminal skills and backgrounds do so in a service.

I would take the fact that all six basic careers are called services to imply that they are not, in fact, all Imperial services. The Merchant Service is a term that covers a whole slew of private organizations. No matter how much the megacorporations are in bed with the Imperial nobles, they're still not a ervice in the same sense that the Army, Navy, Marines, and couts are. And there certainly is no such thing as the Imperial Other Service!


Hans

 

[far-trader]

I suppose it's possible to imagine various Imperial services that the 'Other' career could cover. Ministry of Justice, for example. But that sure doesn't fit with the -1 to social level in the Personal Development Table. I submit that no member of any Imperial Service that 'Other' might cover would suffer a loss of society's esteem for being a member of said service.

Not even if they screwed up? Say a Bureaucrat mediating a serious trade disagreement and failing. Or a Diplomat bungling a planetary treaty.

I think that minus to SL shows that the Others are if not criminals then at least misfits.

A fair assessment

But you could easily find "criminals" in the other careers too. Especially Merchants with their Bribery and Streewise turned to certain activities.

...there certainly is no such thing as the Imperial Other Service!

Agreed.

However, some of the "Other" services may be Imperial. I'm thinking some Diplomats, Bureaucrats, Nobles, Scientists, etc. Not all certainly, but a good number. Before Supplement 4 the "Other" career covered those bases, albeit being left up the players to figure out just what kind of checkered career their "Other" character had led. It's quite possible to go through without getting anything obviously criminal or negative (like the Soc -1).

 

[rancke]

Not even if they screwed up? Say a Bureaucrat mediating a serious trade disagreement and failing. Or a Diplomat bungling a planetary treaty.

Since the Others is the only service where loss of social level occurs often enough to appear in the tables, I submit that it represents something more than screw-ups. Unless you think that the four undisputed services somehow don't get their equal share of screwups?

But you could easily find "criminals" in the other careers too. Especially Merchants with their Bribery and Streewise turned to certain activities.

You could fine criminals in the military ervices too. That's not the point. The point is whether the draft in the Character Generation System represents a "real" draft. One that not only drafts people into the Imperial military services, but also into the merchants and the misfits. I say that this is unlikely.

Note, BTW, that I don't claim it works the other way. If the CG rules were completely draft-free, it wouldn't prove that one or more of the Imperial services didn't have a draft. It would just mean that no PC would start out as drafted.

However, some of the "Other" services may be Imperial. I'm thinking some Diplomats, Bureaucrats, Nobles, Scientists, etc. Not all certainly, but a good number. Before Supplement 4 the "Other" career covered those bases, albeit being left up the players to figure out just what kind of checkered career their "Other" character had led. It's quite possible to go through without getting anything obviously criminal or negative (like the Soc -1).

I'm not saying that everyone who ends up in the Other career becomes criminals. I'm saying that some do, and that it's highly unlikely that the Imperium would have a draft that delivered draftees to a criminal career. Or to diplomats, bureaucrats, nobles, scientists, corsairs, or hunters for that matter.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Hans: MT establishes that Dulinor introduced the draft in Illellish, and Strephon made it imperium-wide, as a reform. IIRC, it's in survival margin.

I missed this post at first.

Now, that is evidence! Can you provide a page reference?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Not offhand. My copy of SM is awol.

MT PM page 75, sidebar:

Yet at the same time, Dulinor was responsible for great advances in his subjects’ standard of living. He established policies for the dissemination of technology; he instituted a universal draft (increasing training and education); he was vocal in his criticism of conservative forces in the Imperium. ​

 

[rancke]

Not offhand. My copy of SM is awol.

MT PM page 75, sidebar:

Yet at the same time, Dulinor was responsible for great advances in his subjects’ standard of living. He established policies for the dissemination of technology; he instituted a universal draft (increasing training and education); he was vocal in his criticism of conservative forces in the Imperium. ​

Well, that's evidence of a draft in the Domain of Ilelish, sure enough, if not of a draft in the rest of the Imperium, let alone the rest of Charted Space (the CG draft was part of the original LBB, remember; they weren't originally written specifically about the Imperium).

Now we have to decide if we believe in what the text tells us. It's certainly very impressive to contemplate. Billions, even trillions of people in the Domain of Illelish, and Dulinor instituted a universal draft! Even more impressive if Strephon followed his example. 15 trillion people all going through the draft and being enrolled in one Imperial service or another... That's going to be quite a payroll.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Not if it works as some european countries do... the draft is imposed on those without employment in public benefit fields. One can assume that all 18 MT careers would count, since one may avoid the draft via enrollment in any of the 18.

Kind of like the WPA in the US, ca 1935... if you were unemployed and physically able, you were "hired" by the WPA for mass labor projects.

 

[BruceEdwinMorrow]

So the 5th Frontier War was never really bad enough to need supplemental troops/doctors then?

 

[rancke]

Not if it works as some european countries do... the draft is imposed on those without employment in public benefit fields. One can assume that all 18 MT careers would count, since one may avoid the draft via enrollment in any of the 18.

Kind of like the WPA in the US, ca 1935... if you were unemployed and physically able, you were "hired" by the WPA for mass labor projects.

Yes, but try to imagine the sheer anmount of administration involved. And if the Imperium had its choice of every 18 year old out of a population of 15 trillion, wouldn't every serviceman have a UPP of FFFFFX?

Also, and I admit that this only occurred to me right now, don't you think that one or two nitpicking planetary governments just might consider a universal draft to be some sort of interference with their internal affairs? Or perhaps 15,000 nitpicking planetary governments? I sure do.

I don't know what Dulinor's universal draft is, but I'm sure it's not universal. I believe that would be a huge political problem and a practical impossiblity. But it's possible to come up with something that's actually pretty close to the draft in the CG rules. An Imperial placement service, perhaps, that every Imperial citizen has the right to sign up with, even if most of them don't (that takes care of the universality of it). The service will place you somewhere, but not necessarily in the service you asked for. It wouldn't be a draft, exactly, but once you signed up with the placement service, it might have more or less the effect of the CG draft rule.

Only... whatever the CG draft represents, it's not Dulinor's draft. Dulinor was elevated to Archduke in 1104. Any character created for a Classic Era campaign in, say, the Spinward Marches wouldn't have heard about Dulinor's elevation in 1105. The Dulinor's draft has to be implemented, Strephon has to decide to emulate him, and Strephon's draft would have to be implemented. By 1116, any character with more than four term under his belt would have reached the age of 18 before Dulinor's reforms were even promulgated. Three tern characters MIGHT just have been subjected to them, but probably not. Yet all characters, regardless of age, is subject to the CG draft (if they don't get into their chosen service).



Hans

 

[rancke]

So the 5th Frontier War was never really bad enough to need supplemental troops/doctors then?

No one said that. What we said was that the need was most probably met without drafting random doctors from free traders.


Hans

 

[veltyen]

Yes, but try to imagine the sheer anmount of administration involved. And if the Imperium had its choice of every 18 year old out of a population of 15 trillion, wouldn't every serviceman have a UPP of FFFFFX?

Only 15 trillion?

Ignoring Social standing, and assuming no significant modifiers via homeworld then the number of AAAAAX (where A is A or higher) would be 1 in every 8000 (approximately) with a life expectancy of 80 years that would mean that there were 1 in every 640,000 citizens in that class turning 18 each year. Call it one in a million (rounding error). That allows a total military intake of 15 million persons each year. Assuming they each serve for 4 years that would be a total military capacity of 60 million.

At CCCCCX those numbers would be 1 in every 5 billion - allowing a yearly intake of 3000 18 year olds - and a lot of worlds only having one person in the military in living memory.

Going the other way 88888X would be doable. That would be an intake of about 1 per 6000 citizens and somewhat appropriate for elite forces that require well rounded individuals.

Apologies for the maths interruption.

 

[far-trader]

...

Apologies for the maths interruption.

No apology required Instead my thanks for saving me doing the maths

 

[aramis]

Hans, I think you may be using the wrong meaning of universal. Universal as in imperium wide. Not as in "every adult".

The MT mechanics support imperium wide, but don't support every individual.
Try for what you want, and if you make it, great. If not, at some point prior to turning 19, you get "invited" into imperial military service.

 

[rancke]

Ignoring Social standing, and assuming no significant modifiers via homeworld then the number of AAAAAX (where A is A or higher) would be 1 in every 8000 (approximately) with a life expectancy of 80 years that would mean that there were 1 in every 640,000 citizens in that class turning 18 each year. Call it one in a million (rounding error). That allows a total military intake of 15 million persons each year. Assuming they each serve for 4 years that would be a total military capacity of 60 million.

Ach! Of course, a stat of F doesn't crop up naturally. My mistake. But why not AAAAAX? (Which would make my point just as well, since we know for a fact that a lot of military veterans didn't start with that (In fact, a lot of them didn't start with 77777X, although most of them may well have started with an average of 7)). Let's have a look at your figures.

Rounding 1 in 640,000 up to 1 in a million is quite a rounding error. It results in a number more than 50% lower. Let's not round off. That allows for a total military intake of 23,437,500 each year (Let's call it 23.5 million ).

Assuming each serve for an average of one term is far too low. Each serve for a minimum of one term. How about assuming an average of two terms? That would be a total military capacity of 188 million.

You think the Imperial military runs to 188 million people? Well, possibly. Canon is kinda vague on the figures, and there's the whole problem of whether or not to count the planetary services. I think I guesstimated the personnel figures of the Imperial Navy not so long ago and came to a number of millions in the single digits, but I can't remember for sure.

Now do the same figures for 18 year olds with, say, Int 8+ and Edu 9+ and explain why any navy enlistee would have lower Int and Edu than that? (Except for nobles, of course; there's no mystery why (Imperial) nobles would be alled in with lower scores :devil.

At CCCCCX those numbers would be 1 in every 5 billion - allowing a yearly intake of 3000 18 year olds - and a lot of worlds only having one person in the military in living memory.

Yeah, FFFFFX was a boner. Wildly exaggerated. Doesn't affet my central point one tiny bit, though.

Going the other way 88888X would be doable. That would be an intake of about 1 per 6000 citizens and somewhat appropriate for elite forces that require well rounded individuals.

But as we know, it isn't done. Why is that, do you think?

Apologies for the maths interruption.

Don't apologize. For one thing, I started it, and for another, reality checks are always welcome.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Hans, I think you may be using the wrong meaning of universal. Universal as in imperium wide. Not as in "every adult".

The MT mechanics support imperium wide, but don't support every individual.
Try for what you want, and if you make it, great. If not, at some point prior to turning 19, you get "invited" into imperial military service.

Invited is fine. Drafted is not. I notice you didn't address my points about how member worlds would feel about an Imperial draft or the sheer size of the administrative apparatus you would need. Though I suppose you could draft all the clerks you'd need .

And regardless of what happens in 1116, the draft in CT character generation is still not supported by any other evidence than itself.


Hans

 

[BruceEdwinMorrow]

But wouldn't there be civilian casualties that would limit the number of doctors that systems could spare for military use?

Wouldn't the time involved in training a doctor or surgeon preclude military branches from simply training additional staff to meet demand? This is an area where experience and training are crucial. And the war only lasts four years.

I’m just trying to understand where this excess capacity of doctors comes from. If you think of the Marches as having X capacity of doctors (where X is the amount needed to meet peace time demand and provide economic stability to the profession… too many doctors and none can make a living, too few and the medical care becomes prohibitively expensive), then how can the existing base meet Y demand (which I figure as X times 2). Does the military really have that much medical overcapacity in times of peace?

 

[rancke]

I’m just trying to understand where this excess capacity of doctors comes from. If you think of the Marches as having X capacity of doctors (where X is the amount needed to meet peace time demand and provide economic stability to the profession… too many doctors and none can make a living, too few and the medical care becomes prohibitively expensive), then how can the existing base meet Y demand (which I figure as X times 2). Does the military really have that much medical overcapacity in times of peace?

It comes from the ability of one doctor in ten (or 12 or 20 or whatever) to be a military reservist and for the other nine to be able to work a bit harder to cover for him while he is away. I already suggested that the four TL15 high-population worlds in the Marches should be able to provide 36,000 on their own (with far more than that available from the rest of the Domain). How many extra doctors do you think would be needed?


Hans

 

[aramis]

Bruce:

The US Army maintains wartime levels of doctors at all times. During peacetime, the Army hospitals are well overstaffed; sufficiently so as to handle much of the VA backlog.

Now, with them deployed, the hospitals are understaffed by civil standards.

Almost every civilian doc I've seen is either retired military or in the guard or reserves.

@Hans: Dulinor is in office as archduke starting in 1103... 12 years prior to assassinating Strephon. CT is 1105 to 1107 start dates. It's quite possible that it's brand new due to Duke, neé Archduke, Dulinor having pushed it through as a way to bulk up the Army and Navy as a preventative against the 6th Frontier war and the 2nd SRW.

Besides, even if 90% (as was cited for Russia) of draftees don't take a second term, military indoctrination tends to increase patriotism.

 

[rancke]

@Hans: Dulinor is in office as archduke starting in 1103... 12 years prior to assassinating Strephon.

1) Thanks for the correction. Do you have a page reference? I got the 1104 date from the Traveller wiki, and if it's wrong, I want to correct it.

2) So what? You're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. There's still no way it would have been in place to affect characters with two or more terms in 1105.

CT is 1105 to 1107 start dates. It's quite possible that it's brand new due to Duke, neé Archduke, Dulinor having pushed it through as a way to bulk up the Army and Navy as a preventative against the 6th Frontier war and the 2nd SRW.

Even if Dulinor got his start in 1103, it would still be a tight squeeze for his draft to get to the Marches by 1105 (And that's when the rules begin to apply; not in 1106 or 1107). But why argue about it at all, since it wouldn't make a difference to characters with more than one term. Oh... wait a minute... Characters that muster out in 1105 after one term are 22 years old, not 18. They couldn't've been subject to anything Dulinor cooked up either.

Besides, even if 90% (as was cited for Russia) of draftees don't take a second term, military indoctrination tends to increase patriotism.

Who says what now?


Hans

 

[veltyen]

Rounding 1 in 640,000 up to 1 in a million is quite a rounding error. It results in a number more than 50% lower. Let's not round off. That allows for a total military intake of 23,437,500 each year (Let's call it 23.5 million ).

I would call it an insignificant rounding error compared to ignoring the modifications to UPP that occur due to planet quality.

Don't Very High Tech Level planets have something like a +1 Int and +2 Edu modifier?

The full work up of the numbers would need to account for that and too many other factors for an off-the-cuff analysis. Anything less then at least an order of magnitude can therefore be ignored.

You think the Imperial military runs to 188 million people? Well, possibly. Canon is kinda vague on the figures, and there's the whole problem of whether or not to count the planetary services. I think I guesstimated the personnel figures of the Imperial Navy not so long ago and came to a number of millions in the single digits, but I can't remember for sure.

Depends on the TU obviously.

IMTU there are systems that supply that kind of number to the Imperium, so yes it certainly seems a little low. It also depends on whether you consider a military shipyard to be IN or independant contractors, whether spaceport defence is done by IM or IA or local army and so on.

Now do the same figures for 18 year olds with, say, Int 8+ and Edu 9+ and explain why any navy enlistee would have lower Int and Edu than that? (Except for nobles, of course; there's no mystery why (Imperial) nobles would be alled in with lower scores :devil.

But as we know, it isn't done. Why is that, do you think?

Employer of last resort?

How does the IN (per your example) compete against a Megacorp on a Very High Tech Level world for the best and the brightest. The Megacorp can pay in the order of 10 times as much (due to TL productivity gains) then the IN can - and it doesn't involve being vaporised by enemy fire or disappearing forever in a misjump.

The economic system of the OTU is at best kind of broken (and a topic to be held elsewhere unless a holy war breaks out).

Maybe the Imperial forces have a policy of taking anyone who asks (or nearly anyone that asks) because universal employment (while impossible) is at least a good goal?

Maybe babysitting a gunnery computer doesn't require stupendous intellect and those people with lower ratings can still be made useful. ("You go to war with the navy you have...")

Maybe an all Int A+ Edu A+ IN would not work from a social cohesiveness point of view (ala "Brave New World"). From my own experience it can cause certain social issues - the jump from being significantly more intelligent then everyone you know to just being in a group where you are "average" (accelerated Computer systems Electrical Engineering Degree in my case) has certain implications for motivation and output.

Societal economic modelling isn't my strong suit (more just a hobby ) so I am sure that other people may be able to contribute.