Dueling and Imperial Nobles

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Is dueling allowed between Imperial Nobles? Is dueling only allowed using nonlethal means or must a duel involve lethal weapons? Was dueling allowed only during certain epochs of the Third Imperium? Do Imperial Nobles even compete this way?

 

[Border Reiver]

I would say yes depending on planetary laws. I suspect that in Milieu 0 the practice may have been rife on Sylea.

 

[rancke]

Is dueling allowed between Imperial Nobles? Is dueling only allowed using nonlethal means or must a duel involve lethal weapons? Was dueling allowed only during certain epochs of the Third Imperium? Do Imperial Nobles even compete this way?

According to p. 50 of GT:Nobles, duels are not against Imperial law but are frowned upon and discouraged in various ways. On p. 112 is a character description that mentions that said character has killed three minor nobles in duels. Legal consequences have been averted by clever lawyers.

Personally, I think that duels are similar to pirates: not very likely, but they're fun plot elements, so what the hey not?


Hans

 

[Border Reiver]

Bah gum! I wish these forums had a facebook-stylee "like" button so I could like that last post Hans.

 

[Reban]

Legal consequences may be avoided if there is a generally accepted code duello in the Imperium. Under the Irish code duello, if the proper rules had been observed the winner would not be convicted of a capital crime.

For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_duello

Things to consider are;

• Are Nobles the only ones allowed to duel?
• Different styles and weapons probably exist during different epochs.
• Members of the Imperial Military are probably banned from duelling.
• Forms other than martial duels probably exist*

*VR games, races (cars, speeders, spacecraft), tests of skill might all be used to satisfy honor.

 

[esampson]

I don't see why members of the military would be banned from dueling (assuming dueling was allowed). Most likely there would be conventions in the dueling code that would handle the situation of military people dueling (the simplest being that the person challenged gets to chose the style of combat so a military person issuing a challenge could easily be finding themselves having to use a weapon they are unfamiliar with such as escrima sticks, while someone who challenges a member of the military would be viewed as getting what they deserve).

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Personally, I think that duels are similar to pirates: not very likely, but they're fun plot elements, so what the hey not?


Hans

Agreed.

Nobles will find ways to be competative with one another as a natural course of events. A Code Duello would be interesting, but could not cover every possible occasssion. I can see dueling as an alternative to warfare for disputes amoungst petty nobles.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I don't see why members of the military would be banned from dueling (assuming dueling was allowed). Most likely there would be conventions in the dueling code that would handle the situation of military people dueling (the simplest being that the person challenged gets to chose the style of combat so a military person issuing a challenge could easily be finding themselves having to use a weapon they are unfamiliar with such as escrima sticks, while someone who challenges a member of the military would be viewed as getting what they deserve).

Or the possibility of a member of the military feeling slighted by a performer and challenged to a contest of singing...

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Bah gum! I wish these forums had a facebook-stylee "like" button so I could like that last post Hans.

Do you see the little scale graphic at the top right of the post? (It's a couple of bits over from the post number, or just to the left of the "Report Post" button - don't confuse the two! ) Click that, and add to Hans' reputation.

I don't see why members of the military would be banned from dueling (assuming dueling was allowed).

The primary reason is that they are not their own person. They "belong" to the military - the government has invested all sorts of money in training them and doesn't like to see that tossed away in things like duels. They also heavily frown upon them as a possible way to circumvent/eliminate the chain of command.

 

[atpollard]

I see dueling as a great way to settle those issues about 'what happens if a world has multiple nobles?' or 'what if a local noble outranks an imperial noble?'.

 

[rancke]

I see dueling as a great way to settle those issues about 'what happens if a world has multiple nobles?' or 'what if a local noble outranks an imperial noble?'.

That assumes an Imperial noble would deign to duel a mere local noble. Historically kings did not duel nobles, and Imperial nobles are of far loftier status than any historical king.


Hans

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I thought that an Imperial noble had to defer to the local noble when on-world, unless the subject matter to be deferred had to do with Imperial level interests.

 

[Reban]

I don't see why members of the military would be banned from dueling (assuming dueling was allowed). Most likely there would be conventions in the dueling code that would handle the situation of military people dueling (the simplest being that the person challenged gets to chose the style of combat so a military person issuing a challenge could easily be finding themselves having to use a weapon they are unfamiliar with such as escrima sticks, while someone who challenges a member of the military would be viewed as getting what they deserve).

As Fitz Brown points out this is an issue of members of the military being banned from dueling with each other. It avoids challenges being issued about orders, matters of discipline and as a way of circumventing the chain of command.

Also just as the military frowns upon other ranks striking officers it usually frowns upon Lieutenants dueling with Colonels.

Traditionally dueling was banned for officers of the British Army but on the other hand some Germanic militaries allowed sword duels. Of course in this case the officer class was also the noble class and so might have been considered more permissible.

For Traveller: If the Navy attracts more Nobles as officers, is there a tradition of dueling in the Navy?

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I can see military noble officers dueling in non-combat ways. Who can raise the most money for a charity or who can lead the better sports team.

 

[esampson]

Well, humans being what humans are I would suspect that 'dueling' is usually going to take some form of confrontation.

Part of the reason why dueling laws existed was to try and mitigate conflict situations. If Person A felt offended they could challenge Person B. Person B then had the opportunity to apologize or back down or whatever. If the matter wasn't too grave then the two might fight some form of honor duel where the winner might be decided by first blood or knockout or surrender or some other method. If the matter was grave enough and irreconcilable then the two might fight to the death.

Now the fact that they were fighting to the death and even if they weren't the possibility of accidental death existed might seem like it wasn't mitigating conflict situations, but it was. First off it simply helped in the situations of misunderstandings. When someone was challenging another person to a duel it removed any doubt that the challenger thought it was a serious matter. Considering what kind of challenge they issued it even helped to clarify exactly how serious they considered it to be. This gave the challenged person the opportunity to back down or alter their stance if they hadn't realized how serious the matter was.

In the case of duels of honor they also typically provided a pretty clear indication as to when to stop fighting. This could really help to prevent matters from escalating and even in the case of the loser it had to possibility of granting some satisfaction (yes, I lost, but he'll carry a scar by which he'll remember me).

The protocols of dueling also provided an opportunity for people to calm down, even if it was only the few minutes it took for people to walk outside.

Contrast this with what would happen in situations where a dueling code doesn't exist. You might have a person taking a swing at someone before they're even aware how serious the matter has gotten. What should be a simple test of strength until someone decides they've had enough can spiral out of control until someone's dead because it isn't clear when the fight should be broken up. And of course you could get vicious cycles going where Person A kills Person B's brother in a brawl so Person B wants revenge (it could still occur after a duel but the fact that it was a duel would reduce the odds of that happening).

So that's the 'why' of dueling codes. It is an attempt to mitigate conflict when it can't be avoided. Unfortunately let's try to apply this to a situation where the person being challenged is Performer.

What did the Performer do to upset the Military Person so severely that they challenged the Performer to a duel? I don't know, but the important thing to remember is that the Military Person is upset. If they are upset do you think they are going to be satisfied with a contest where the odds are all stacked in the favor of the performer? Of course not. And if there was any chance at all that the Military Person might defeat the Performer then the Performer could chose something completely off the wall (who can grow their hair the longest) so that even if the Performer loses they haven't really lost anything of consequence.

So under those conditions why would the Military Person ever issue a challenge in the first place? With no outlet they would continue to grow more upset until they bust the Performer in the chops (or worse) and then the whole system breaks down.

On the other hand a Performer who is being heckled certainly might want to exercise the right to duel provided they could keep it within the realm of performing and a well evolved dueling code might well allow them to do something like that.

Given the state of the Imperium I would imagine that if it has dueling codes (and I'm not saying it would, but if it did) they would be pretty well evolved. In those cases the rules could be horrible complex. One would imagine all sorts of conditions such as the challenger being able to chose the basic conditions of the duel (mortal combat, first blood, test of skill, test of strength) most likely with certain restrictions based upon the situation (it would be reasonable for a Performer being heckled to challenge to a test of skill but it would not be reasonable for them to do so if someone were to accuse them of lying about some sort of payment). The challenged would be given some sort of opportunity to 'chose their weapon' (so even a performer who challenges someone to a singing contest could be put at a disadvantage if the challenged chooses a style they are not proficient in). Then you would probably have rules that allow for proxies in certain cases but not in others, protocols about who can challenge whom (a Duke can ignore any challenge from a simple peasant with no real loss of face), etc., etc., etc.

Rather than trying to codify such a Byzantine system I would probably be much more likely to say that the Imperium allows dueling within certain limits but that the specifics are generally handled by planetary law and custom (which may forbid dueling entirely). That way as a Ref you are always free to change around the dueling laws as necessary for the story without concern about precedent or contradiction.

 

[Reban]

I can see military noble officers dueling in non-combat ways. Who can raise the most money for a charity or who can lead the better sports team.

That is competition, and is a a healthy and neccesary part of any military unit or career. Dueling is used to settle matters of honor.

 

[rancke]

I thought that an Imperial noble had to defer to the local noble when on-world, unless the subject matter to be deferred had to do with Imperial level interests.

Unless T5 has something to say on the subject, local nobles[*] aren't mentioned at all in Traveller rules and setting material until possibly[**] GT:Nobles, and IIRC there's nothing said about relationships between the two very different groups. But logically an Imperial baron would feel far superior to the Far Future equivalent of a present-day baron. Don't let the similarity in title fool you.

[*] Local local nobles, that is. Not appointed by the Imperium but by individual member worlds. Local Imperial nobles are mentioned, and they would, of course, be worthy of being duelled, since they belong to the same peerage as the Imperial noble himself.

[**] I thought that Nobles mentioned parochial nobilities too, but I can't find it; they're not in the index.​

Hans

 

[Garyius2003]

I don't see why members of the military would be banned from dueling (assuming dueling was allowed). Most likely there would be conventions in the dueling code that would handle the situation of military people dueling (the simplest being that the person challenged gets to chose the style of combat so a military person issuing a challenge could easily be finding themselves having to use a weapon they are unfamiliar with such as escrima sticks, while someone who challenges a member of the military would be viewed as getting what they deserve).

Living in close quarters, often drunk together, needing to work closely together or for one another in life or death circumstances. Needing to bluntly evaluate ability or judgement and sharing the same. I can see not allowing officers to duel.

Example at the higher rank level: Decatur was a very good American navy officer and leader. He served on the court martial of Barron, and correctly convicted him for being a dufass and surrendering after only one shot against the British back in the bad old days of 1807. Barron was suspended for 5 years. Came back on duty, even though Decatur spoke against it--correctly, as a senior officer.

Years after the court martial Barron calls him out and kills him. Other officers learn it isn't about being a good officer, or duty, it's about being lucky in a duel.

 

[esampson]

Living in close quarters, often drunk together, needing to work closely together or for one another in life or death circumstances. Needing to bluntly evaluate ability or judgement and sharing the same. I can see not allowing officers to duel.

Example at the higher rank level: Decatur was a very good American navy officer and leader. He served on the court martial of Barron, and correctly convicted him for being a dufass and surrendering after only one shot against the British back in the bad old days of 1807. Barron was suspended for 5 years. Came back on duty, even though Decatur spoke against it--correctly, as a senior officer.

Years after the court martial Barron calls him out and kills him. Other officers learn it isn't about being a good officer, or duty, it's about being lucky in a duel.

Sorry, what I really meant by 'Military People dueling' was a Military Person dueling someone not in the military (or possibly someone in a different service).

Dueling within the ranks is a completely separate issue and would be handled through whatever code of conduct that branch has (which actually would probably also handle them dueling with non-military people). Real dueling would be almost certainly verboten for reasons of cohesion as well as the fact that as others have said the military has a lot of money invested in these people. The closest they would be allowed to get would be to challenge each other to non-lethal competitions (sparring, target shooting, and the like).

 

[whulorigan]

GT: Nobles

[*] Local local nobles, that is. Not appointed by the Imperium but by individual member worlds. Local Imperial nobles are mentioned, and they would, of course, be worthy of being duelled, since they belong to the same peerage as the Imperial noble himself.

[**] I thought that Nobles mentioned parochial nobilities too, but I can't find it; they're not in the index.​

Hans

In GT: Nobles -

1) Local (Imperial) Nobility are discussed on p.12
2) Parochial (Local/Planetary) Nobility are discussed on p. 83
3) Dueling is discussed on p. 50
​