Dueling and Imperial Nobles

[esampson]

Interesting. Sword duels don't actually have to be fatal either. First blood duels could be more socially acceptable than dueling to the death. Dueling scars could go in and out of fashion. . .

My take would be that the vast majority of duels would be 'first blood' types of things. One of the reason many of the codes that governed nobles in battle evolved was so that the nobles wouldn't kill each other (or at least the odds were reduced). Thus it became acceptable to hold a defeated noble prisoner until their ransom could be paid (or they ceded control over the contested territory).

On the other hand some matters might be so grave that it would be understood that only mortal combat could settle the matter. This probably wouldn't be viewed as socially unacceptable as a general thing as having a dead noble is probably preferable to having planetary bombardment but in the specific it might often be viewed as socially unacceptable (one Baron refuses to retract a statement about another Baron's wife, it would quite probably be inappropriate for the second Baron to challenge the first to mortal combat).

The social prestige of dueling scars would probably vary greatly depending upon the planet/culture of the character. I mean Dulinor came from a culture where it would have been considered an insult not to be armed in the presence of the Emperor. I'm sure they would view dueling scars as badges of honor. On the other hand Imperium medical technology is probably good enough to remove nearly any scar so there would almost certainly be cultures where having such a scar would be viewed in the same light as a noble tattooing 'Badass' across their forehead (since it would essentially be almost the same thing).

 

[rancke]

My take would be that the vast majority of duels would be 'first blood' types of things. One of the reason many of the codes that governed nobles in battle evolved was so that the nobles wouldn't kill each other (or at least the odds were reduced).

"According to Ariel Roth, during the reign of Henry IV, over 4,000 French aristocrats were killed in duels "in an eighteen-year period" whilst a twenty-year period of Louis XIII's reign saw some eight thousand pardons for "murders associated with duels". Roth also notes that thousands of men in the Southern United States "died protecting what they believed to be their honor." [Wikipedia]​

Hans

 

[esampson]

I would be cautious about using Ariel Roth as a source. Being at work I've only had a few moments to briefly skim the paper being referenced but it seems to be 'this is why I will not argue my creationist beliefs'. It is difficult for me to know if his facts are accurate, cherry picked, or incorrect.

That said, I'm certainly not trying to say that dueling was always non-lethal. Like anything it had a wide range of variation between cultures and over time. Likewise when nobles went to war death was a real possibility. The codes of conduct were more guidelines than laws and even when they were followed often people would die as a result of wounds received due to the poor state of medical knowledge.

Nevertheless these implied codes of conduct were one of the reasons that Duke Leopold of Austria captured King Richard and held him for ransom. He bitterly hated Richard (as shown by the fact that he ambushed him as he was returning from the Crusades) but didn't kill him as that simply would not have been appropriate (I doubt he would have shed a tear had Richard died during his capture, however).

When viewed from a sociological point of view it appears that the codes of conduct evolved in at least an attempt (though most likely not a collectively conscious attempt) to make conflict less likely to be fatal for the nobility.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I'm sure there are plenty of duels in Celestine Floridore's The Three Guardsmen.


Hans

I had not read this before and find it Positively Evil.

My hat is off to you sir, I am impressed.

 

[Carlobrand]

Even then, it would be unlikely to be allowed. The whole issue of chain of command gets turned upside down if folks (even just within their own rank) are allowed to duel each other.

So, how did the Brits and American militaries handle it during the 18th and 19th century?

 

[aramis]

So, how did the Brits and American militaries handle it during the 18th and 19th century?

US, during the 19th, banned participation by US officers in duels. Enlisted men could not even attend a duel.

That said, the code duello was really only strong in Louisiana, where it cost one their right to vote if one participated in a duel. (But that required that someone either die or that a witness informed the state/parish government. But at least in Louisiana, killing in a duel was not a criminal act.)

 

[rancke]

So, how did the Brits and American militaries handle it during the 18th and 19th century?

It was quite a problem. The law forbade duels, but custom was so strong that to refuse a challenge meant social ruin. So the militaries adapted. Challenging a superior officer was a court-martial offense; other challenges were resolved discreetly. Deaths might be ignored or they might lead to trial for murder. In the navy an affair could hang for years if the participants were on different ships.


Hans

 

[Reban]

So, how did the Brits and American militaries handle it during the 18th and 19th century?

In the British Army dueling was punishable by the Civil Law. For example in 1808 in Ireland a major was hanged in Armagh for killing another major in a duel. Seconds were also guilty if the charge of murder was proven. Taking part in a duel was grounds for dismissal from the service. Making a challenge was also a prosecutable offence, incurring a fine of £100.

All the above examples are from home service. I can't find a reference at the moment but I believe the Duke of Wellington made dueling by officers a offense punishable by court marshal during the Peninsular War. Of course he had the complication of operating with allies who were liable to issue challenges (Aslan? ).

Wellington himself fought a duel over a political matter in 1829, although he was out of military service at the time.

Dueling wasn't actually made an offence for officers until 1843 when Queen Victoria desired a change to the Articles of War after two scandalous duels. The actual result was that officers hopped on the ferry to Boulogne or Callais in France to fight their duels.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Dueling wasn't actually made an offence for officers until 1843 when Queen Victoria desired a change to the Articles of War after two scandalous duels. The actual result was that officers hopped on the ferry to Boulogne or Callais in France to fight their duels.

If two military officer nobles were Hell-bent on fighting a duel, they would travel to a NA or CS world?

I see adventure possibilities here.

 

[arbitrary.remora]

If two military officer nobles were Hell-bent on fighting a duel, they would travel to a NA or CS world?

I see adventure possibilities here.

Perhaps even a 'Sword'-world? (sorry)
Great idea for an adventure lead. Consider it stolen.

As much a 19thC practices inform MTU, I really don't see a dead frontier baron or two being a great concern at the subsector level or beyond. There's always someone finishing up their Navy career with a fresh title.
Maintaining a talent pool is more important than maintaining a bloodline.

 

[Cryton]

During the Milieu 0 Era, the place was rife with "old Guard" Sylean and Vilani Nobles that did not like Emperor Cleon, nor his "New Imperium".

As such, it is easy to imagine Cleons appointed new nobles using duels to "un-entrench" those Old Guard Nobles whom Cleon did not approve of but could not otherwise remove through political means.

One could also see Cleon smiling because of the fact that his new nobles did what they had to do for the good of the Imperium...all the while "officially" not supporting dueling.

Just sayin....:devil:

~Cryton

 

[Reban]

Challenge/JTAS 26 has one of my favorite articles: Military Academy, a traveller varient minigame where players take the parts of cadets attending an Imperial Military Academy on the world of Beauville (A867744-C N Rich Agricultural G). Unfortunately no sector is given so as to allow the Ref to drop the world in anywhere in their campaign.

The game revolves around the cadets academic progress allowing for plenty of side adventures (think Hogwarts for Naval, Marine and Army cadets).

One possible side adventure is to get involved in a duel. Beauville allows dueling and there is a special dueling ground set aside in the main city park (there is a reference to a "Beauville Code Duello"). Duels are banned by academy rules. Cadets caught dueling risk severe punishment or expulsion.

A duel has six phases: 1). Issuing a challenge. 2). Arranging a Second. 3). Other details. 4). Choosing weapons. 5). Publicly announcing a duel. 6). Aftermath.

Failure to follow the above results in a charge of assault or murder.

There's a good two pages on the details of the duel. A referee and a doctor are required. Matched weapons are used; either blades or firearms. If either party is killed the surviving cadet is arrested, taken off planet and court marshaled.

No claims that any of this is canon or applies generally in the Imperium; this is "variant" Traveller created in a Beauville bubble. Interesting none the less.

 

[arbitrary.remora]

During the Milieu 0 Era, the place was rife with "old Guard" Sylean and Vilani Nobles that did not like Emperor Cleon, nor his "New Imperium".

As such, it is easy to imagine Cleons appointed new nobles using duels to "un-entrench" those Old Guard Nobles whom Cleon did not approve of but could not otherwise remove through political means.

One could also see Cleon smiling because of the fact that his new nobles did what they had to do for the good of the Imperium...all the while "officially" not supporting dueling.

Just sayin....:devil:

~Cryton

Yup!. I can hear the 'lecture':
'Well hault-Simpson, We understand you've run dear old Baron Issugii through the liver, hmmm? Fatal no?
Now, it will not do for our Barons to go around sword fighting each other...so we have no choice but to make you a Marquis. Be a good fellow and try to avoid any fights on your way to your new fief in the Old Expanses.'

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

During the Milieu 0 Era, the place was rife with "old Guard" Sylean and Vilani Nobles that did not like Emperor Cleon, nor his "New Imperium".

As such, it is easy to imagine Cleons appointed new nobles using duels to "un-entrench" those Old Guard Nobles whom Cleon did not approve of but could not otherwise remove through political means.

One could also see Cleon smiling because of the fact that his new nobles did what they had to do for the good of the Imperium...all the while "officially" not supporting dueling.

Just sayin....:devil:

~Cryton

I could see this being used as background for a catspaw type campaign where a group of nobles have been politely asked, nothing official mind you, to dispose of some troublesome nobles of the old guard.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I've talked about this thread to the resident historical renactor at work and he has told me that he will try to find a copy of an American Code Duello that he has at home. I will borrow it and try to scan as a PDF to post here.

 

[Whipsnade]

IIRC, Towers/Aramis is said to have a dueling culture in TTA.

 

[Reban]

Here's a link to the Irish Code Duello http://faculty.columbiabasin.edu/faculty/dabbott/duIrishCode.htm

Surprizing mistake on this page is that the actual date of this code is 1777 not 1877. Follow the link back to the documents page for the American and French codes.

 

[Cryton]

Yup!. I can hear the 'lecture':
'Well hault-Simpson, We understand you've run dear old Baron Issugii through the liver, hmmm? Fatal no?
Now, it will not do for our Barons to go around sword fighting each other...so we have no choice but to make you a Marquis. Be a good fellow and try to avoid any fights on your way to your new fief in the Old Expanses.'

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking! And another problem Nobles world being en-route the new Fief in question! :rofl:

I could see this being used as background for a catspaw type campaign where a group of nobles have been politely asked, nothing official mind you, to dispose of some troublesome nobles of the old guard.

I am fairly sure that it has been. If not, it will be! :devil: