Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
What about ...
R x ( ( (L-E)xI) + Lx(I-E) ) / 2)
Basically average those two alternatives together so as to capture both ends of the spectrum of possibilities in a single multiplier for R.
Economic Heft of Worlds
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
R x ( ( (L-E)xI) + Lx(I-E) ) / 2)
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
I checked my notes:
Infrastructure is derived from Population and Importance which is derived from Starport Quality, Tech Level, “Good” Trade Classes (there is no negative modifier for Na, Ni, Po, etc.), the presence of multiple bases, with a specific detriment for lower population worlds POP<6 = 1.
Therefore R x L x (I-E) incorporates the negative multiplier to both Labor (population) and Infrastructure, whereas R x (L-E) x I is only a negative modifier to population.
Infrastructure = 2d6 + Importance = (All Mods) Starport Mod (determined Random) + TL Mod (Random + Starport Mod, Hyd Mod, Atm Mod, Pop Mod, Gov Mod) + Positive Trade Mod (determined by Pop, Atm, Hyd) + Bases (Starport Mod)
Just to compare against:
T4 Pocket Empires calculation for Gross World Product (before modification for interstellar trade):
GWP = ((Tech Level * 0.1 * Resources Available) * Labor Factor * Infrastructure)/(Culture + 1)
Tech Level means more efficient processing of resources and also being able to exploit resources like belts and gas giants if high enough.
Resources Available is how much actual raw resources are available in the system.
Labor Factor is basically a multiplier based on (Population-1) where Labor 7 = x1. Each +1 (or -1) of Labor Factor changed the multiplier by 10
Infrastructure in this case is basically how capable the world is of actually processing resources. This did not include the Starport.
Culture in this case means population expectations of more extensive welfare systems and also more extensive consumer culture.
To calculate the value of a RU was (Tech Level * 0.1 * Resources Available)/1000000 = value of RU in MCr
T4 Pocket Empires calculation for Gross World Product (before modification for interstellar trade):
GWP = ((Tech Level * 0.1 * Resources Available) * Labor Factor * Infrastructure)/(Culture + 1)
Tech Level means more efficient processing of resources and also being able to exploit resources like belts and gas giants if high enough.
Resources Available is how much actual raw resources are available in the system.
Labor Factor is basically a multiplier based on (Population-1) where Labor 7 = x1. Each +1 (or -1) of Labor Factor changed the multiplier by 10
Infrastructure in this case is basically how capable the world is of actually processing resources. This did not include the Starport.
Culture in this case means population expectations of more extensive welfare systems and also more extensive consumer culture.
To calculate the value of a RU was (Tech Level * 0.1 * Resources Available)/1000000 = value of RU in MCr
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Yeah, RU in T4 was pegged to the credit... I seem to recall it being something around 15 trillion credits. Or maybe 1.5 TCr. Or something. Wasn't there a sidebar about that?
(p41: in Milieu 0, one RU is worth TCr 5)
Anyway: Different beast.
Which reminds me -- attached find my old T4 Pocket Empires worksheet.
(p41: in Milieu 0, one RU is worth TCr 5)
Anyway: Different beast.
Which reminds me -- attached find my old T4 Pocket Empires worksheet.
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To calculate the value of a RU in a world's local currency was (Tech Level * 0.1 * Resources Available)/1000000 = value of RU in MCr
My calculations for the Glorious Empire industrial world of Htourlao yielded 1 RU = ~3.9k MCr
RU is an abstract representation though. It may represent some cash, such as paying salaries, but it also represents processed resources and the effort expended to direct them in a meaningful fashion.
My calculations for the Glorious Empire industrial world of Htourlao yielded 1 RU = ~3.9k MCr
RU is an abstract representation though. It may represent some cash, such as paying salaries, but it also represents processed resources and the effort expended to direct them in a meaningful fashion.
I would express it as excess capacity available beyond subsistence to martial towards societal scale goals.
So for instance a pop in the billions will have that many more excess hands to put towards fleet building/terraforming/teching up, but still quite a few tied up in domestic consumption so to speak. Either actual production or trading surplus to buy subsistence needed.
Whether makeup counts as baseline subsistence or not depends on the eye of the beholden….
So for instance a pop in the billions will have that many more excess hands to put towards fleet building/terraforming/teching up, but still quite a few tied up in domestic consumption so to speak. Either actual production or trading surplus to buy subsistence needed.
Whether makeup counts as baseline subsistence or not depends on the eye of the beholden….
That was represented by the T4 Pocket Empires Culture level. Although it probably should be expanded rather than a single one digit representing everything, in Pocket Empires it represented this cultural expectation.
Low Culture meant traditionalist, no frills, and conservative as in resistance to increase Tech Level. High Culture meant more interest in novelty but also higher expectations of economically "impure" spending, such as on consumer goods and social services (including propaganda). Economic purity being defined in Pocket Empires as spending devoted to basically further increasing production, and not for purposes of consumption.
In terms of numbers, Culture was a drag on GWP and increased social tax rate, but was a positive for Popularity.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Basically "Luxury Items" in Civilization budget terms (for those people familiar with the Civilization series of games).
Pretty much, a high Popularity could mean a production boost which translated into greater revenue and more RU to spend, sort of like Civilization Golden Age.
A high Culture also made it easier for a ruler to change the status quo, such as increasing infrastructure, starports, or Tech Level.
One problem I have with the T5 Culture rating is it seems to equate Acceptance or tolerance to high population and Importance. While that may often be the case, there can also be examples of high population worlds that are unwelcoming to outsiders, such as the previously mentioned Glorious Empire. Its capital Syoakh has a Traveller map listed Culture of A (very friendly) but the actual background on it suggests the exact opposite.
MThompson016
SOC-12
High population and tolerance for outsiders may mean there are more enclaves willing to accept different cultural values side by side for the reason of making money, in the fashion of Shanghai before World War II.
Well that’s an arguable modifier to the final valuation of RU under my proposed definition. A planetary or interstellar leader is interested in a summation of actual societal capacity, RUs give them that number.
I’m harkening back to the original granddaddy of RU, the board game Imperium. There we have RU primarily building fleets, but also building outposts, an optional terraforming rule, and I think Dark Nebula had a tech advancement.
Also had societal differences in that Terran worlds produced much more RU then Imperial worlds. Retconned to Vilani ultra stable culture, but definitely a picture of a stagnant empire keeping distant provinces on a leash.
And Terran worlds only had 8 RU compared to 1 RU outposts. By my thesis that would be both a lot of economic activity soaked up by local wants/needs and high motivated outpost settlers extracting the highest value resources.
Yes, but not all high population worlds need to necessarily be tolerant.
For example, the aforementioned Syoakh is described in the Mongoose supplement to be like a space North Korea and space Pyongyang. Any humans entering risk being kidnapped/enslaved, unless they have prior permits. Hospitality seems limited/forced to the extent that one is useful to the regime, and there are many areas off limits to offworld visitors, at least without prior permission and an escort. Yet they are listed on Traveller map as being Very Friendly since T5 Culture is determined only by Pop and Importance.
I combed my email for references to the term "aryu":
By 2016, I still had trouble divorcing RU from MCr.
So RU is strategic spending. Maybe it's also tactical. Maybe it's more efficient when used strategically? That would definitely stretch well out of the reach of the credit, where spending it now is better than hoarding it without purpose (arguably).
"Accounting unit" for "expenditures". So it is budget-related, though not really credit-related. It does seem to imply allocations and power projection. And specifically mentions "naval construction", so you do allocate to things.
But also a "comparative", so a long-range summation of wealth. That too suggests a strategic elements.
By 2016, I still had trouble divorcing RU from MCr.
So RU is strategic spending. Maybe it's also tactical. Maybe it's more efficient when used strategically? That would definitely stretch well out of the reach of the credit, where spending it now is better than hoarding it without purpose (arguably).
"Accounting unit" for "expenditures". So it is budget-related, though not really credit-related. It does seem to imply allocations and power projection. And specifically mentions "naval construction", so you do allocate to things.
But also a "comparative", so a long-range summation of wealth. That too suggests a strategic elements.
No, it's capability.
Simply, look at the United States. That whole "sleeping tiger" thing that the Japanese mentioned during WWII.
You can't "buy" the US, you can't "sell" the US. All you can do, is develop your resources to a level that can become equivalent to the US.
The US has capital, manpower, know how, local resources. Even blockaded, the US is a force to be reckoned with. And, that force can be turned and focused, quite quickly.
Singer (the company that makes sewing machines) retooled to create rifles in WWII. That's capability, not money. They couldn't do it without the engineers, machine tools, machinists, and material.
At a very micro level, you and me, we can "buy" anything. We can "rent" engineers, machine shops, skilled labor, etc. At a national level, you can't really do that. You have to use what's in place. You have to develop your base. Strategic spending will, ideally, increase overall RU long term. More training, more infrastructure, more developed raw materials. But the spending itself is not an RU. It's spending to develop RUs.
Farm subsidy is another example. It's worth spending money to keep badly performing farms in place, because it's important to have an overall farming capacity, even if it is being underutilized. Easier to convert an existing, badly performing farm than it is to start up a new one from scratch should you need it. That idle farm is a measure of RU.
T4's model:
Resources are converted to RU through Labor and Infrastructure, as modified by Tech Level. This is further then modified by the Starport and amount of interstellar trade.
A mining planet may have high Resources but relatively little Labor and Infrastructure. They would have low RU in and of themselves as they have little means to convert the mined ore into finished products. The T4 Pocket Empires model allowed for exporting of Resources which converted to RU, simulating actual Credit revenue but also importing of finished goods or other useful items that could be actually "spent".
Again, in T4 there was a conversion to Credits to get an idea involved. It was usually on the scale of 1 RU = several gigacredits. However it was not purely a bank account as there were limits to how much RU a world could save up even if it had a surplus. Beyond financial capital, it could include stored up raw materials, and other things such as human capital and manpower.
Resources are converted to RU through Labor and Infrastructure, as modified by Tech Level. This is further then modified by the Starport and amount of interstellar trade.
A mining planet may have high Resources but relatively little Labor and Infrastructure. They would have low RU in and of themselves as they have little means to convert the mined ore into finished products. The T4 Pocket Empires model allowed for exporting of Resources which converted to RU, simulating actual Credit revenue but also importing of finished goods or other useful items that could be actually "spent".
Again, in T4 there was a conversion to Credits to get an idea involved. It was usually on the scale of 1 RU = several gigacredits. However it was not purely a bank account as there were limits to how much RU a world could save up even if it had a surplus. Beyond financial capital, it could include stored up raw materials, and other things such as human capital and manpower.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
One thing has been puzzling me in the course of reading this thread, and that is exactly how does this apply to the average group of players? I can see how it would be important if you decided to run a Trillion Credit Squadron type of game, where the players are Fleet Admirals, planetary government leaders, or Sub-sector Dukes. However, if the player characters are not such very high-powered types, where is the application?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The Travellers are hired by a megacorporation/local noble/planetary government/other to improve the economic output of an underdeveloped system.
First they will need info on the current situation, then potential for development, then strategies to achieve that development.
First they will need info on the current situation, then potential for development, then strategies to achieve that development.
An example was given in T4 Pocket Empires of espionage by one empire against a higher TL world. The empire was trying to increase its TL, and the espionage attempts (over consecutive years) if successful would each reduce the RU cost by 1 and the time by 1 year. Maybe the players are involved in assisting (or foiling) an attempt to smuggle the research/technical data.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Good thing there's no precedent for that kind of thing happening in our modern world!
Oh ... wait ...
