Education stat Question and discussion

[CosmicGamer]

First, I have limited to no exposure to the different versions of Traveller and how they may handle the following and would love examples of how it may be handled stating which version of traveller you are basing your response on.

1) Can you explain a character from a low tech world who dropped out of school and was drafted for one term getting only the minimum number of skills possible before being denied reenlistment yet has a very high education stat.

Yes you can roleplay that the char was educated on the streets and in the school of hard knocks, but where are the skills to reflect this education?

2) If you have a very low education but attend college, or career training and gain skills shouldn't your education automatically go up?

3) Is education just a measure of potential?

I'm just confused because the education stat does not appear to reflect the characters background and actual lifetime education

Also, If you run or play a game that often uses the Education stat as a modifier please respond with examples

I am a newbie in regards to the amount of exposure i have to this game having only played a long time ago in a very small group.

 

[mike wightman]

IMTU Int is problem solving and intuition, while Edu is general knowledge, "experience" and "book learning".

In CT it was possible to raise your Edu to be level with yout Int by following a correspondance course during downtime.

The character you describe may well have some sort of photographic memory and can remember everything learned along the way, hence the high Edu stat.

Skills in Traveller represent actual technical knowledge and experience, notice in the original game the skill list is very limited and doesn't bother with the triviality of sciences and arts education but sticks to the skills needed to survive in the world.

 

[aramis]

To me, Edu represents general knowledge and ability to recall data, not just formal education. Formal schooling wil generally increase general knowledge, and often ability to recall.

Int is ability to manipulate that data effectively, and to perceive things. (Yes, I conflate percention and intelligence, and I KNOW that to be flawed...)

 

[Golan2072]

1) Can you explain a character from a low tech world who dropped out of school and was drafted for one term getting only the minimum number of skills possible before being denied reenlistment yet has a very high education stat.

He has probably read, and read A LOT; he might even got dropped from school due to reading stuff for interest rather than what the teachers were intending him to read. And low skills during a single military career also point to relatively low activity - of his 4 years of career, most of his experience was boredom rather than combat; that is, more time to read.

Yes you can roleplay that the char was educated on the streets and in the school of hard knocks, but where are the skills to reflect this education?

Skills and education are, IMHO, two different things. Skills mostly represent practical and professional know-how; education represents theoretical knowledge. So he might know about a lot of stuff in theory, but lack real experience.

2) If you have a very low education but attend college, or career training and gain skills shouldn't your education automatically go up?

According to High Guard, College gives you 1d6-2 education, so you might get up to 4 additional education points. And skills without increased education is hands-on training without much theoretical knowledge.

3) Is education just a measure of potential?

The way I see it, education reflects actual knowledge rather than potential; however, that knowledge is theoretical rather than practical (practical training/experience is represented by skills). Intelligence is more related to potential than education, but even intelligence could be improved by training.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Kudos to you, Golan, on what I think was an excellent response to my post.

First; one of the problems I always had with the education stat may just be my own, possibly illogical, preconception (based on what the majority of stats are in most RPGs) that stats are the base values of the physical, intellectual, and psychological abilities a character is born with - they can however be modified by life events, rigorous physical and mental training, hypnotism, drugs and other methods. I see education differently - you would be born with an education of 0 (you have no "ability" its just a measure) and the stat would show the level of schooling (formal and informal) a character has obtained so far in their life and possibly decreased at times to show a characters inability to retain all the information. So i don't really see Education as a stat/characteristic comparable to the others just as I wouldn't see or treat another measuring stat, your characters age, the same way.

Let me give a couple of scenarios...

1) As a GM, in your plot you want 2 of your characters to be identical twins - a pair of twin children who were separated at birth with one raised on a low tech world and one on a high tech world but the players don't know they have a sibling and will find out when they finally meet. You could easily explain how these two identical twins end up with different stats. Maybe one was raised on a struggling ranch and was used to a lot of hard work while the other was adopted by a wealthy family and never had to lift a finger. More extreme differences in stats may require a more extreme life altering explanation. Example: The char with the lower stats had some sort of accident or illness that left them permanently hindered. I use hindered instead of handicapped because if one has a str of C and the other a 6, a 6 is not handicapped - this person may have been a star athlete who was injured and can never compete again but is certainly still capable.

2) 2 players roll characters that have the exact same stats and skills. They both have education - B. One character, named Lowtech, spent their whole life on a low tech world (my scenario in the original post) and the other, named Hightech, is from a high tech world. Somehow they are both faced with an identical task that is dependant on a education DM.

He has probably read, and read A LOT; he might even got dropped from school due to reading stuff for interest rather than what the teachers were intending him to read. And low skills during a single military career also point to relatively low activity - of his 4 years of career, most of his experience was boredom rather than combat; that is, more time to read.

Previously, I had a hard time wrapping my head around Lowtech and Hightech having the same chance to perform a task that I felt was beyond the education Lowtech would have received on his low tech home world that he just left for the first time; but everyones posts helped me come up with:

Luckily Lowtech while bored during the jump had picked up a book that was lying around - the tech manual for this very piece of equipment!

Conclusion:
I love how, even in fairly odd circumstances such as 1) and 2) some good imagination and role playing can get you through pretty much anything without breaking the game rules/mechanics.

 

[Golan2072]

Kudos to you, Golan, on what I think was an excellent response to my post.

Thanks!

 

[Icosahedron]

I have a non-standard take on this (as with most things) :smirk:

My Cr2:

I view Education as the level of learning that has taken place (and I agree the anomalies may be ironed out to some extent by informal learning rather than official qualifications) and I view Intelligence as the potential to learn. Thus, I have a house-rule that Edu can never exceed Int.

I also have a house-rule regarding Personal Tech Level. A character's PTL depends on the environment in which their learning takes place. Two professional surgeons of skill-4, one of PTL5 and one of PTL10, will have very different techniques to deal with a gunshot wound, but significant time spent in a higher TL learning new techniques will slowly improve their familiarity with the latest methods and equipment.

 

[Mithras]

I can quite easily see a lowInt buffoon who can recite everything he learnt at university, but never utilises that information. He seems just as inept and stupid, despite having a Masters Degree in Archaeology and Social Sciences.

I view Education as the level of learning that has taken place (and I agree the anomalies may be ironed out to some extent by informal learning rather than official qualifications) and I view Intelligence as the potential to learn. Thus, I have a house-rule that Edu can never exceed Int.

I don't see Edu as a stat like age, it isn't a given that people learn because they are being taught. They learn because they learn. Some people are able to absorb a huge amount, voracious digesters of info and subjects, others taking thesame courses, having the same experiences may take alot less away, either consciously or subconsciously.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I also have a house-rule regarding Personal Tech Level. A character's PTL depends on the environment in which their learning takes place. Two professional surgeons of skill-4, one of PTL5 and one of PTL10, will have very different techniques to deal with a gunshot wound, but significant time spent in a higher TL learning new techniques will slowly improve their familiarity with the latest methods and equipment.

Not sure this a "house-rule" though. Just good roleplaying and a good GM who adjusts the difficulty of a task based on the characters background and not just blindly use their black and white skills and stats for DMs.
...

I view Education as the level of learning that has taken place (and I agree the anomalies may be ironed out to some extent by informal learning rather than official qualifications) and I view Intelligence as the potential to learn. Thus, I have a house-rule that Edu can never exceed Int.

Hmm, I usually prefer to stay will the rules of any game whenever possible especially when it is not breaking any laws of science or common sense. IMO there is no reason why someone with average intelligence (lets say a Intelligence-7) can't go to college, get additional career training, and any other additional education (say a Education-9). It will just be more of a struggle and possibly take longer than for someone with an Intelligence-9. Yes, you could say that a low Int might prevent admittance to school, but there are other ways to gain education. Also power (even something a simple as a parent graduating from the school and certainly Nobility), money (Daddy paid for the new medical research wing) and even athleticism (sports scholarships) often can gain you admittance where Intelligence might not on it's own.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your way though. I understand. It's like, we need to knock that education down a bit - this dumb guy (or gal, or whatever you'd call that furry thing [alien race]) couldn't possibly learn that much or have the memory to retain it in that pea brain.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Another Scenario regarding Education (and Int) for discussion.

Character Aay 777A57
Character Bee 7775A7

Our two characters are standing in front of a broken item that an average person would not have exposure to and our two characters have no skills that seam to apply other than they both have a general mechanical background (Mech-0).

The GM has our 2 characters roll using their mech skill and education modifiers
Aay gets a -1 DM
Bee gets a +1 DM
Using their Education, you can see how Bee gets a much better chance at somehow having some knowledge of the item. If neither succeeds they stand around with their thumbs up their... um... armpit.

(assuming Bee succeeds and Aay fails)
The GM determines that Bee recognizes the item but never learned or can't remember how to repair it (possibly letting Bee roll with Intelligence and Mech skill to determine if he recalls anything that may help him repair it).
Bee: "Hey, I recognize that. It's a A1-B2 module."
Aay: you can see a glint of hope in my eyes as I ask "Excellent! Do you know how to repair it?"
Bee: shaking head back and forth "No" I start scratching my chin trying to think what to do next
Aay: I slap Bee on the back and give a gentle nudge towards the doorway "Common, lets go get a repair manual."

So our two adventurers download a repair manual for the A1-B2 into each of their handhelds and start going through it.

Now it is time for them to each examine the A1-B2 and see if they can figure out what is wrong with it. The GM has them roll using Intelligence and mech skill as modifiers so:
Aay gets a +1 DM
Bee gets a -1 DM
Using their Intelligence you can see how Aay gets a better chance of understanding the repair manual and figuring out whats wrong. If they both fail, they stand around scratching their.. um... heads.

Points in this little scenario:
Even though Aay is smarter (higher Int) he doesn't have as wide a knowledge base (education) as Bee.

Bees broader education gave the pair a better chance to figure out what repair manual to search for.

Aays higher education gave the pair a better chance of using the repair manual to fix the A1-B2

One way of looking at it is that Bee can attempt to do more things than Aay because of his broader educational background, but has a higher chance of getting things wrong.

Agree? Disagree?

Next, for the scenario above, after one of my characters recognizes whats wrong I would use a Dex/Mech DM to determine if they were successfull at repairs.

Now, how about a GM that decides to use just one roll to determine the outcome. (because of playstyle, trying to use less random die rolls, to speed up the game, or just didn't think of breaking it up into multiple tasks) Do you use a Int/Mech DM a Edu/Mech DM or a Dex/Mech DM?

 

[JAFARR]

Or you can use something I did once in Twighlight 2000. PC had the Int of a butterfly (like 3 for Traveller) and the Edu of 2 PHD's (Say D in Traveller). I made him re-roll the Int and he got slightly above average, so I ruled that the second roll was his actual Int and the first was his appearent Int due to a head wound. He was a fluent reader in several languages, but had no idea what he read really said.