Eliminating postive DM bonus due to armor

[Supplement Four]

TYPICAL ACTIONS



This section of the rules is often overlooked or ignored by CT Refs. It's an extremely helpful rule, though. It boils combat down into its basics.

When a player tells the Ref what he wants his character to do--

Jinn is going to draw and squeeze off a shot from his AutoPistol at the target wearing black, and then zip around the corner, out of sight, and make a run for it.

--the Ref can break down any action the player describes into the few worlds that are mentioned in the Typical Actions rule.

Remember that each character should be able to attack and move during the 15 second combat round.

Looking at the above player description, and considering the Typical Actions rule, the Jinn character is going to Draw. Shoot. And, Run to Open Range.

"Run" describes how far to Open Range--how far to move the character. Run means move the character 50 meters, or two range bands.

"Draw" is a modifier to the "Shoot" action. Jinn fires his AutoPistol with a -3 modifier because it is being drawn.





SIMULTANEOUS ACTION

Most of us are used to non-simultaneous action. We're used to combat rounds with initiative to decide which character's actions take precedence.

But, in Classic Traveller, damage is not applied to the end of the round. If you shoot a foe and kill him, he still gets to shoot back at you this round (he'll be dead at the end of the round after all the action has taken place).

This can sometimes confuse the Ref, especially if he is used to other types of games.

Here's what I suggest: The Ref should have character moves in the most logical sense, and since the action is simultaneous, it doesn't really matter what order the characters act.

When I Ref CT, I focus on the action as I see it in my head and play it out as logically as I can make it.

In the above example, Jinn draws his weapon, fires it at the Black clad foe, and then runs around the corner.

Let's say the Ref decides that the foe drops flat, to be a smaller target, and fires from the prone position.

I use the Typical Actions rule, breaking them up into two components (Attack and Movement) and then play it out logically.

In this encounter, we've got...

[B]  Black Clad Foe       vs        Jinn
1.  Stand (Prone)      vs    1.  Shoot/Draw
2.  Shoot              vs    2.  Open Range (Run)[/B]

So, I would run this round like this....

1. Jinn fires at Black Clad Foe. I'd impose a penalty DM* on the shot due to the target being prone.

2. Regardless of damage done, if any, Black Clad Foe fires from the prone position at Jinn, who is running away from him. Range is original range +1 Range Band (because Jinn was moving while Black Clad Foe was dropping and aiming in the first part of the round). If 25 meters of movement puts Jinn around the corner of the wall, then no shot is possible for the Foe.

Damage is applied after both characters have finished their actions for the round.





PRONE PENALTY

In the past, I've used this House Rule. The DM is applied to the attacker based on the attacker's rang to the prone target.

[B]PRONE MODIFIER
+4  Close Range
+0  Short Range
-2  Medium Range
-4  Long Range
-8  Very Long Range[/B]

 

[Supplement Four]

Characters who run when they open or close distance expend a point of Endurance and cannot attack that round, per the rules. I was referring to running in my post above.

We're both unclear here. I was thinking of gun combat but writing about a character with a sword.

The rule actually states that a character who runs cannot make a melee attack. No swing or blow. But, the character can run and shoot.

If one is using the 1981 abstracted Range Band System one could run from the broadsword wielding opponent from Short to Medium range.

This is where the Ref needs to step in to ensure the combat round is simultaneous.

And, this is where the Typical Actions chart comes in handy, as I suggest above.

Ablin and Brial are at Short range. Both have broadswords. Ablin's player says, "I want to attack Brial and run from him."

Brial's player says, "I want to attack Brial and chase him!"

Using Typical Actions and breaking the encounter down into two parts, attack an movement, we get...

[B]   Ablin         vs.     Brial
1.  Swing        vs.    1.  Swing
2.  Close Range  vs.    2.  Open Range[/B]

So, to play this out...

First we have Ablin swing at Brial, and Brial swing at Ablin.

Then, Brial Opens Range by one range band while Ablin closes by one range band.

The attacker could keep up with you, also running, but not attack that round. You both would also lose a point of endurance.

I don't see that the rule reads that way. The Run replaces the attack. Which means that you can't Run then Attack.

By the same token, you can't Attack and then Run.

Then, think of the Range Bands. Short Range is within the same Range Band. If you move one Range Band, then your foe could move one Range Band and still be in the same band.

As for my joke about the length of combats... sorry I wasn’t clear. I was talking about 25 or more minutes of REAL time.

Oh, sorry. You're quite right. Combat can take a long time!

 

[Supplement Four]

CT COMBAT NOTES

Here's a few ideas on CT Combat from my sig.



HOUSE RULE: STUN



WEAPON SHEETS



EXAMINATION OF RANGE BANDS GRAPHICALLY




RANGE BANDS and RANGE BAND CATEGORIES

 

[creativehum]

I don't think we're unclear or confused as it might first seem. (But I might be wrong!)

So, in Book 1 of both the '77 and '81 rules this is what the rule says:

Running is considered an expenditure of energy and is counted as a combat blow (reducing total endurance points and prohibiting the character from attacking in the round).

The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller add the clause about melee weapons:

Running is an expenditure of energy and is counted as a combat blow (reducing total endurance points and prohibiting the character from making any swing or blow attacks that round); see the endurance rule.

I was working from Book 1 (I generally do!), but let's assume we're working from The Traveller Book rule.*

So, I think that clears up the first part of the confusion, yes?

*****

As for my example of one guy running away (two range bands, from Short to Medium) and the other guy declaring, "I'm chasing him!" I think we both agree that they will end up at Short range, but neither will attack, but both will lose a point of Endurance.

I see that as very clear. (It's what I said in my previous post.) I think you agree with it. If you do, there's no need to disentangle anything else. If there is, tell me where you are confused.

And think that's it!

____
* I like the idea that running costs you something more than just the Endurance point, so I would cut the difference between Book 1 and The Traveller Book. You can't use a melee weapon when you run. But you can fire a weapon, but at a -DM. But that's a house rule... nothing to argue about.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't think we're unclear or confused as it might first seem. (But I might be wrong!)

So, in Book 1 of both the '77 and '81 rules this is what the rule says:

A "combat blow" and Endurance points are the province of melee attacks. Endurance points do not apply to gun combat.

So, I think it is still clear that the rule is referencing melee (Brawling combat, as it is termed in CT) only--not gun combat attacks.

As for my example of one guy running away (two range bands, from Short to Medium) and the other guy declaring, "I'm chasing him!" I think we both agree that they will end up at Short range, but neither will attack, but both will lose a point of Endurance.

Yes, I do agree, if they're both using their fists or melee weapons. If they are using guns, then they can attack.

 

[creativehum]

A "combat blow" and Endurance points are the province of melee attacks. Endurance points do not apply to gun combat.

So, I think it is still clear that the rule is referencing melee (Brawling combat, as it is termed in CT) only--not gun combat attacks.

Yes, I do agree, if they're both using their fists or melee weapons. If they are using guns, then they can attack.

Like I said, let's assume the phrasing from The Traveller Book. So, we're all good.

 

[kilemall]

Just for giggles I'll throw out my mutant CT/Striker version.

To hit as per Striker (with a few mods)

Once hit, location roll, skill is added to roll.

2-5 1D Extremities
6-11 2D Middle Parts
12 3D Head

Pen roll, add weapon pen, subtract armor, melee pen is -4

2 -3D
3 -2D
4-5 -1D
6-8 -
9-10 +1D
11 +2D
12 +3D

Add 1D for blunt trauma/direct HE/plasma-fusion hit

So a lucky shot with a pistol to the head could do 5D damage, but will average 2D with a gut shot.

FGMPs are going to average 6D, but a lucky arm/leg shot might just lose the extremity and not kill.

The aforementioned broadsword will typically hit meaty thoracic 2D damage and with an effective +3 average a +1D pen damage for 3D, but easily get 4D/5D.

Laser Rifle averages 5D, but with reflec its more like 2D.

Cloth against Rifle averages 2D as opposed to 3D no-armor.

Oh, and a big point of this is you can have BPV/plate on the vest (equivalent to high armor now and a bit better then Cloth but an encumbrance effect), cloth on the arms, jack on the legs and a cloth helmet (-1 for open visor), and resolve all armors separately.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Has anyone experimented with combat by removing the positive to hit DM bonus for armor vs weapons? I am not sure what the rationale is for this DM. Since armor deflects damage one would assume that either you have protection or you don't. A throw of 8+ (at least to me) assumes you are striking a target without any significant protection. Many of the weapons have large bonuses to unarmored/Jack targets. Why is a Foil +2 to hit a naked man? Club/Body Pistol 0 (I guess my skin is tough enough to stop bullets and blunt force trauma). Submachine gun +5. Perhaps this is to account for all of the billions of scrubs who no training with weapons, not even skill 0? I can see armor making it hard to hit (penetration) but I have never seen a game mechanic where it makes you easier to hit (unless my understanding of the 8+ roll to hit is flawed).

When I read those rules in the '70s, I and other Traveller friends of mine home-brewed our own rules to make combat rolls like skill rolls (and with much less abstractions). Which is what Mongoose Traveller ended up doing as well. Armor now soaks damage. And "To-Hitting" something is no more.

 

[mike wightman]

You only roll damage? No roll to hit the target?

 

[mike wightman]

Since AHL/Striker conversions are now fair game - here is mine.

roll to hit (8+ or 12+ depending on range - +/- DMs)
roll penetration/damage

3- no effect
4-5 1D
6-7 2D
8-9 3D
10-11 4D
12+ 5D
add an extra damage die for every 2 points above 12

I dropped this because three dice rolls to resolve a combat takes too long and get boring after a while.

I now just use a to hit roll and a weapon damage roll, with armour subtracting damage dice (lowest to highest) until only one damage die remains, any remaining armour points are then subtracted from the remaining damage die number.

 

[rhialto]

I now just use a to hit roll and a weapon damage roll, with armour subtracting damage dice (lowest to highest) until only one damage die remains, any remaining armour points are then subtracted from the remaining damage die number.

Interesting: what do you use for the armor values?

 

[mike wightman]

You can just about port any of the AHL/Striker/MT/T4/MgT armour values across.

 

[ddamant]

I always loved T4 Emperors Arsenal. However, the damage values for many weapons are 1-2D higher than their counterparts in CT (and the ranges are different). I think this was offset by the T4 rule that a character could never take more than 3D from a single attack and that weapons lost one damage die per armor level penetrated. I am curious if anyone has tried porting in T4 weapons (everything but range) and used the T4 armor values in CT. If one used the 3D max damage rule my guess is the higher damage of some weapons would be irrelevant.

Mike, it looks like you do something similar to this.

 

[mike wightman]

It started as T4, the removal of damage dice from lowest to highest and then leftover points was taken from T20.
It sounds clunky but when you have used it a few times it is pretty quick.

 

[kilemall]

Since AHL/Striker conversions are now fair game - here is mine.

roll to hit (8+ or 12+ depending on range - +/- DMs)
roll penetration/damage

3- no effect
4-5 1D
6-7 2D
8-9 3D
10-11 4D
12+ 5D
add an extra damage die for every 2 points above 12

I dropped this because three dice rolls to resolve a combat takes too long and get boring after a while.

I now just use a to hit roll and a weapon damage roll, with armour subtracting damage dice (lowest to highest) until only one damage die remains, any remaining armour points are then subtracted from the remaining damage die number.

As you no doubt noted in my megathread I started out going that way but decided it ended up differing from CT results too much and didn't give me my fidgety per body part armor bit, nor allowed very well for blunt effects like maces and hammers.

Also, another goal was to make FGMPs survivable if they 'just' hit your leg rather then being hit with a phaser/disruptor 'destroy' shot.

 

[kilemall]

Has anyone experimented with combat by removing the positive to hit DM bonus for armor vs weapons? I am not sure what the rationale is for this DM. Since armor deflects damage one would assume that either you have protection or you don't. A throw of 8+ (at least to me) assumes you are striking a target without any significant protection. Many of the weapons have large bonuses to unarmored/Jack targets. Why is a Foil +2 to hit a naked man? Club/Body Pistol 0 (I guess my skin is tough enough to stop bullets and blunt force trauma). Submachine gun +5. Perhaps this is to account for all of the billions of scrubs who no training with weapons, not even skill 0? I can see armor making it hard to hit (penetration) but I have never seen a game mechanic where it makes you easier to hit (unless my understanding of the 8+ roll to hit is flawed).

As to the OP, I started out breaking out the armor from the range to-hit and looked to apply armor effects afterwards, with the idea that maybe something doesn't penetrate but bruises/burns badly enough to warrant a 1D/2D hit.

As I see there is a bit of that in MgT1E, but not keen on all the numbers one must keep track of due to the different penetration characteristics they have with the more advanced weapons from CSC.

MgT2E may or may not be cleaner, but I'm pretty happy with my current CT/Striker iteration. The highend stuff is still plenty deadly without it being an exercise in .001% hope of survival rolling out a 10D hit.