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EM drive a bit better than expected? FTL for real?

BlackBat242

SOC-14 1K
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/

Some comments...
However, Paul March, an engineer at NASA Eagleworks, recently reported in NASASpaceFlight.com’s forum (on a thread now over 500,000 views) that NASA has successfully tested their EM Drive in a hard vacuum – the first time any organization has reported such a successful test.

The NASASpaceflight.com group has given consideration to whether the experimental measurements of thrust force were the result of an artifact. Despite considerable effort within the NASASpaceflight.com forum to dismiss the reported thrust as an artifact, the EM Drive results have yet to be falsified.

After consistent reports of thrust measurements from EM Drive experiments in the US, UK, and China – at thrust levels several thousand times in excess of a photon rocket, and now under hard vacuum conditions – the question of where the thrust is coming from deserves serious inquiry.

And warp-field research is getting positive results:
For the last three years, Dr. White’s team has been conducting experiments to find out whether it is possible to measure, with an interferometer, a distortion of spacetime produced by time-varying electromagnetic fields.

The ultimate goal is to find out whether it is possible for a spacecraft traveling at conventional speeds to achieve effective superluminal speed by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it. The experimental results so far had been inconclusive.

During the first two weeks of April of this year, NASA Eagleworks may have finally obtained conclusive results. This time they used a short, cylindrical, aluminum resonant cavity excited at a natural frequency of 1.48 GHz with an input power of 30 Watts.

This is essentially a pill-box shaped EM Drive, with much higher electric-field intensity, aligned in the axial direction. The interferometer’s laser light goes through small holes in the EM Drive.

Over 27,000 cycles of data (each 1.5 sec cycle energizing the system for 0.75 sec and de-energizing it for 0.75 sec) were averaged to obtain a power spectrum that revealed a signal frequency of 0.65 Hz with amplitude clearly above system noise. Four additional tests were successfully conducted that demonstrated repeatability.

And they seem to have created FTL particles:
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/49360/20150428/nasa-may-have-accidentally-discovered-faster-than-light-travel.htm

Much of the scientific community believes that faster-than-light travel is physically impossible, and no matter the material, accelerating something to such ludicrous speeds simply can't happen.

However, there are also those who believe that faster-than-light travel is possible - and one team may have just accidentally stumbled onto it.

A team at NASA may have unintentionally accelerated particles to faster-than-light speeds while using the EmDrive resonance chamber - basically, if their findings turn out to be accurate, the team may have just discovered faster-than-light travel.

To clarify, the EmDrive resonance chamber is a proposed method of interstellar propulsion: basically, this could end up being the engines that the starships of the future use. The advantages of using such a device are numerous: it's electrically powered, it features no moving parts and doesn't require any material fuel to move. If it ends up working as planned, there's a good chance that it could lead to a new breed of engine.

NASA is currently studying the technology for future applications, but few expected anything like this to happen: according to a post over at the NASA Space Flight forums, when a team of researchers fired lasers into the resonance chamber, the particles were accelerated to astronomical speeds...with some moving even faster than the speed of light.

"...this signature (the interference pattern) on the EmDrive looks just like what a warp bubble looks like. And the math behind the warp bubble apparently matches the interference pattern found in the EmDrive."
 
it looks like the impulse engines from the SFTM in miniature...

I hope it actually works on orbit.
 
Scholarly Article with theoretical eplanation...

Over at http://arxiv.org/abs/1604.03449 is an article, entitled "Testing quantised inertia on the emdrive" by M.E. McCulloch, Submitted on 6 Apr 2016 to arxive.org...

The shape and the bouncing of light actually cause massless photons to do things differently than massive particles...
 
+1. Isn't half of our trouble with in-system travel just getting things into orbit?

No, the problem is getting the fuel needed for everything past LEO up to LEO...

I'm hoping the rumor I've heard about a cubesat EMdrive test later this year are true...

Mars is about 14.47 m/s of total delta V surface to surface 5.07 of that is everything past LEO. But keep in mind the 5.07 m/s of delta-V is at present requiring fuel means having to accelerate its fuel mass as well as the payload.

Elimination of Fuel Mass keeps the costs down to $20 per gram, instead of the roughly $200 per gram of a mars shot...

And, assuming SpaceX manages to reduce the costs to LEO to $1 per pound (which it looks like they might be able to pull off), and then add EMDrive...
 
Sifu peeks in, stops and does a double take...

The ultimate goal is to find out whether it is possible for a spacecraft traveling at conventional speeds to achieve effective superluminal speed by contracting space in front of it and expanding space behind it. The experimental results so far had been inconclusive.

Fascinating!

The first thing that came to mind is if this device could be weaponized. What effects would occur if this was used against an enemy spaceship? Could clashing fields have a catastrophic effect? What if it were aimed at a planet, or operated on the surface?

Considering game and real life possibilities...
 
Fascinating!

The first thing that came to mind is if this device could be weaponized. What effects would occur if this was used against an enemy spaceship? Could clashing fields have a catastrophic effect? What if it were aimed at a planet, or operated on the surface?

Considering game and real life possibilities...

Considering that the EMDrive is, at present, being tested in multiple labs on earth.

The problems it faces are fourfoldfold
  1. Religiosity of the scientific community
  2. effects barely above the margin of error of the instruments
  3. Lack of viable explanation in the standard model
  4. the gatekeepers of the peer reviewed publications system

Point 1 is the huge stumbling block. Many so-called scientists have forgotten that the purpose of science is to understand why things work, not to dictate a model by which the universe operates. Their world view is at risk of shattering if this new technology actually works, and so they refuse to even look at it, declaring it error without ever even reviewing the data.

Point 2 is problematic, but it's worth noting that more recent tests use both more power and more sensitive instrumentation, and ARE detecting changes above error margins.

Point 3 isn't a problem for many Engineers, but tend to be a major stumbling block for both the guys in point 1 and point 4... See, we've been able to make use of many technologies since before they were actually well understood, and anyone with a history of engineering class knows that kinds don't need to understand light propagation nor refraction to discover that you can pop ants with a magnifying glass, and also scorch wood, and light paper on fire...

Point 4 is related to point 1, but not the same problem. The gatekeepers generally are looking for things which will have a strong theory which is then tested, and the theory is upheld (the Null fails), and which has a basis for said theory. The EMDrive has no strong theory firmly based in the standard model, and the standard model is largely the baseline for the gatekeepers. They have a vested interest in that which can be made into textbooks. Exceptions that are not readily explained, even tho' replicated, are not good fodder for textbooks, and are not good fodder for publication. Add that some of them are part of group 1, and will not admit anything which actually threatens their worldview...

I've actually read 4 of the papers published. the EM drive produces the same thrust without regard to direction when rotated at test site. It produces the same deflection when in vacuum. It does not produce the same deflection when a resistor of same impedance is substituted for the magnetron. It does appear to lengthen the path light takes when crossing the operating chamber versus when it's not operating (Sonny White, not replicated by others; one of his assistants suggested it might be generating a warp field, and Dr White tried to null that, but couldn't).

  • We can't rule out that it's altering local spacetime.
  • We can't rule out that it's using an alternate theory of light impact.
  • We can't rule out that it is some undiscovered property of interaction with massive objects - and until we put one deep in the interplanetary medium, we won't be able to.
    • Even if it still works in orbit, it might not work in the interplanetary medium.
    • Even if it still works in the interplanetary medium, it might not work in the interstellar medium.

About the only thing we can say is that it's not getting a chance to be properly peer reviewed (Dr. White and Mr. Shawyer both have complained of the rejection at the gate), and that 6 labs have independently built and tested models that produced anomalous thrust not explicable by current understanding within the standard model.
 
Point 1 is the huge stumbling block. Many so-called scientists have forgotten that the purpose of science is to understand why things work, not to dictate a model by which the universe operates. Their world view is at risk of shattering if this new technology actually works, and so they refuse to even look at it, declaring it error without ever even reviewing the data.

Some of this is the 'cult of Einstein'. Even though Einstein's theories fail at certain levels, some think nothing he said was wrong. The idea behind Dark Matter is troubling in this way: scientists found, when they tried to measure the mass of the universe using Einstein's equations, that 70% of the mass of the universe is missing, they then thought "Einstein couldn't be wrong, the universe must be wrong!"

That's just bad science there.
 
Unfortunately, a close look at the applications of Einstein's theories shows the repeated use of unique "special constants" to get the math to work - and a different "special constant" has to be applied for each time the main formulae don't work... and there are dozens of such exemptions.

In other words, many of the detailed applications of Einstein's "constants" don't work unless "massaged" to force them to work.
 
Unfortunately, a close look at the applications of Einstein's theories shows the repeated use of unique "special constants" to get the math to work - and a different "special constant" has to be applied for each time the main formulae don't work... and there are dozens of such exemptions.

In other words, many of the detailed applications of Einstein's "constants" don't work unless "massaged" to force them to work.

Einstein was one of the "Most Right" for culminating classical physics into modern physics... but Heisenberg, Hawking, Shrödinger, and others have shown that things are distinctly weird...

I don't think it's so much "cult of einstein" as "Orthodoxy is what was taught when I got my PhD"... as someone pointed out, we put the oldest, most hidebound science teachers in positions they almost can't get fired from, and let them pick the gatekeepers on their universities' peer review process...

it's a systemic breakdown leading to making progress a matter of having enough money to show it works before being able to get decent peer review.

I've noticed on several boards a lot of people who refuse to accept that a paper that wasn't peer reviewed is in any way useful nor that it may be true. That's the really important casualty...
 
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