CosmicGamer
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I'm not familiar with the entire Traveller universe but what are the odds of this? You'd have to be operating on the edge of a 72 parsec rift, no?
Emergency Situations and Responses II
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
Check up-thread. Someone already pulled values for ELB power requirements that are fairly consistent across several versions of the game.
I think his point was intended to include the possibility that a ship like a Scout might misjump far away from civilization (i.e. there might be worlds nearby, but they are either uninhabited or are very low TL, and therefore unable to offer assistance).
The idea here, is to determine which emergencies starships haven't a prayer of dealing with and hoping for rescue outside of the ship itself. As mentioned, it seems that misjumps into empty hexes become automatic death sentences for player characters UNLESS the GM offers a way out - which is fine for DRAMATIC universes versus Universes that do not have that built in "escape clause". However, that isn't really the intent of this thread. The intent is to explore known Traveller Universes (via their respective game system rules) to see what is, or is not possible. As pointed out by another poster upthread - Humaniti has been in space over 10,000 years. You would think that SOME effort has been made to deal with emergencies of some sort. Yes, some ships will disappear for no seemingly good reason. Do you think that such a "fate" would not grip the emotional core of the universe to the extent that people would not empathize with "Mayday Mayday. Power reserves gone. Lifesupport non-functional. This is the last transmission of the ship Credit Dew. Out."
You would think that the Star Port Authority (or someone else for that matter) might implement some relatively low cost system for handling such emergencies - unless they are TRULY beyond its capability to save.
So, I'm going to illustrate my points regarding Misjumps and assume the following - whether or not the Credit Dew starship was jumping 1 hex or was jumping 2 hexes - had a misjump, and misjumped a mere 1 hex or a whopping 36 hexes - I'm going to presume that its exit point was somewhere within the confines of the Lunion Subsector. Why? Because it doesn't much matter how many hexes it misjumped, or what have you. What matters, is where it finally ends up. To that end, I will be opening up a new thread to offer specifics of a problem, and see what solutions people arrive upon in order to avoid those sad and tragic ends that would signify the more horrible of fates - entering into low berth and not knowing if you just committed suicide or not!
The obvious precaution for ships going outside the bounds of civilization is to do it in a ship big enough to carry a jump-capable subcraft.
As for misjumping into an empty hex, I assume that it is possible to head for the nearest star and survive to get back to civilization for the very simple reason that an automatic death sentence is profoundly un-adventurous. If the rules do not support such an outcome, I want different rules.
As an aside, one of the adventures I've written for JTAS Online is based on just such a misjump and the shenanigans the crew and passengers get up to on their way to the nearest star. Another features a ship that returns from deep space after half a millenium (though after that long, only two of the people in the low berths survive revivification).
Hans
As for misjumping into an empty hex, I assume that it is possible to head for the nearest star and survive to get back to civilization for the very simple reason that an automatic death sentence is profoundly un-adventurous. If the rules do not support such an outcome, I want different rules.
As an aside, one of the adventures I've written for JTAS Online is based on just such a misjump and the shenanigans the crew and passengers get up to on their way to the nearest star. Another features a ship that returns from deep space after half a millenium (though after that long, only two of the people in the low berths survive revivification).
Hans
Hi Hans,
The Adventure is a good one worthy of publishing. THE DEATH OF SLEEP (a novel) postulates what happens when someone survives long periods of time where the universe they went to sleep in left them behind - both from the perspective of the sleeper, and one of her descendants who happens to be in the space naval forces. However...
Creating an adventure that ignores the constraints of the rules themselves causes its own problems. As pointed out elsewhere, having low berths capable of surviving extended use requires a power system capable of functioning for that length of time. Few of the rules (except GURPS TRAVELLER that I'm aware of) permit such a function of low berths in a ship for extended periods of time. So, rightly or wrongly, the design rules for the various Traveller incarnations need to be looked at and see what they permit or don't permit - without violating the rules as written. It may very well happen, that someone is going to handwave the issue away for their Traveller Universe, but they're going to know that it isn't supported by the rules as written and have to overrule (and rightfully so perhaps!) the rules designers!
That having been said, I'm still trying to keep this within the bounds of the rules and see what creative ways people can come up with to solve the issue at hand - namely, how does a crew survive ANY major disaster that requires either that the ship receive outside assistance, or that the crew somehow manages to hold on by their fingernails and survive despite the odds.
Yes, that person was me.
This has already been answered.
It has already been pointed out that both MegaTraveller & T5 allow for the function of Low Berths for the necessary extended periods with the power sources available on any ship. And this is within the bounds of their respective rule sets.
Actually, no. A fair amount of both of the threads regarding this topic have demonstrated exactly the opposite, with strategies for survival included in the analysis. The above only applies to ships without Low Berths or ELBs (and no transmitter or power source {emergency reserve or otherwise}).
Consider the following posts on your first thread on this topic:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=447844&postcount=41
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=447846&postcount=42
I had also already made the point that the IISS or SPA would likely have frequencies set aside to monitor for faint Signal GKs, what information a ship Captain would need to include in those Signal GKs (position/timestamp, velocity vector, etc), and that the SPA/IISS would also have its own directional bearing based on the signal alone, were it to mount a rescue operation.
Is this enough to come up with a credible scenario for Starport and/or a Ship Master's standard emergency procedures?
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True, but I prefer a good adventure any day. Besides, aren't there canonical examples of people surviving for a long time in low berths aboard ships? Wasn't there a con scenario by Marc Miller himself about a starship crew that went into low berth for centuries at a time and woke up just in time for various pivotal historical events?
So long-term survival in low berths aboard misjumped ships is yet another reason why it would be a good idea to change the rules for fusion power plants to make them not so incredibly inefficient.
Hans
True. But in the OTU that will only happen to VERY well financed exploration expeditions. Not to commercial vessels in the 3I.
[FONT=arial,helvetica][/FONT]Originally Posted by whulorigan
They do not take into account any DMs due to local conditions the GM might impose for specific circumstances which the Captain (PC or NPC) may or may not be aware of.
Umm, like what?
Possible examples:
1) Spatial Anomaly (such as on the edge of the Abyss Rift, or at the center of Gateway Domain, if they are not myths);
2) Damage to Jump Drive (known or unknown to the Captain) - from combat or other campaign related situations;
3) Damage to ship electronics - computer or astrogation sensors (known or unknown to the Captain) - from combat or other campaign related situations - resulting in inaccurate jump calculations being performed by the Navigator, or causing automated Jump Control systems to be initiated incorrectly;
Or any other possible situations that might arise within a campaign that the GM decides might have some chance of interfering with normal Jump Drive operation. 2) Damage to Jump Drive (known or unknown to the Captain) - from combat or other campaign related situations;
3) Damage to ship electronics - computer or astrogation sensors (known or unknown to the Captain) - from combat or other campaign related situations - resulting in inaccurate jump calculations being performed by the Navigator, or causing automated Jump Control systems to be initiated incorrectly;
I am attempting to be fairly general, but the odd modifier here and there due to a particular unusual situation, while not necessarily common, may crop up from time to time.
Where is that in the J failure rules?
If maintenance is done, not possible by the rules.
If maintenance is done, not possible by the rules.
I'm discounting ALL combat as we are discussing commercial ships operating normally.
So, ya got nothing that will cause a mis-jump under normal operating parameters.
Is there a written rule for every possible contingency? That is the whole point of the GM assigning a DM. The Abyss Rift and Gateway Domain do have higher instances of Jump-disappearance. So you tell me what rule you should use if it is relevant to the campaign, if not a GM imposed DM.
Emergency Procedures have to deal with when things are NOT operating under normal parameters, by definition, and are not limited to Commercial Shipping.
So, are we assuming that in your campaigns everything always operates smoothly, as long as everything is done according to schedule? That there are never any circumstances beyond people's control (as long as they have followed proper procedures)? That component failure only occurs on your ships while they are conveniently berthed in port with a set of attending maintenance technicians?
I did not anywhere state that the premise of my response was limited to "normal operating procedures". Emergency Procedures by their nature deal with the possibility of abnormal events. That is why they are in place.
Honestly, do we really need to discuss the fact that in campaigns (as well as in the larger Traveller Universe), things happen that are not "situation normal"?
The quote I responded to:
is patently absurd: "You CANNOT mis-jump if the ship is operated "normally"?
Really?
Does the RMS Titanic come to mind as an example of that kind of thinking?
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I'd say that freak mishaps of Titanic caliber are sufficiently rare that simply imposing a DM would make them FAR too common given the lack of granularity in a 2D6 system.
If you're GM, and that kind of disaster really NEEDS to happen in the story you're setting up, why would you leave it to a die roll anyway? That's the realm of GM fiat, not part of day-to-day Travelling.
Otherwise (for CT anyhow) the only way you can misjump is if you're cutting corners: using unrefined fuel when you're not kitted out for it, letting maintenance slide, not paying an engineer, jumping from within 100D. Freak accidents are too uncommon to be simulated by anything that calls for a roll on 2D6.
If you're GM, and that kind of disaster really NEEDS to happen in the story you're setting up, why would you leave it to a die roll anyway? That's the realm of GM fiat, not part of day-to-day Travelling.
Otherwise (for CT anyhow) the only way you can misjump is if you're cutting corners: using unrefined fuel when you're not kitted out for it, letting maintenance slide, not paying an engineer, jumping from within 100D. Freak accidents are too uncommon to be simulated by anything that calls for a roll on 2D6.
Yes, but the point of the thread is to analyze "Emergency Procedures & Situations" in the Traveller Universe, not situations as they arise in a particular campaign with its particular set of Game Mechanics. That is why in my previous post I said I was trying to be general, not specific.
The point is to determine Emergency Procedures that people in the Traveller Universe would have contingencies for (with 10,000 years of space-experience), which requires analyzing what the possible and/or likely emergency situations are, as well as reasonable procedures to address them. That first requires an analysis which is free of Game Mechanics (at least if you are trying to create a universe that is internally consistent and believable). After that, one can determine how (and if) it should be addressed relative to a particular game mechanic.
The point is: Misjumps occur in the larger Traveller Universe. They don't always occur due to a precise set of predefined circumstances, any more than any other set of accidents in the real world do. Jump drives (canonically) have been described as working according to theoretical principals that are not fully understood, even in the Far Future. Therefore, we need to think as citizens of this future time would (i.e. from an "in-game" perspective, not as GMs and players and rulesets) and ask what they will have put in place to deal with these issues if and when they arise (though obviously the Game Background will help us flesh this out, including the mechanics to a small degree). Matching them up with a particular ruleset for implementation in a particular campaign can be done afterwards, as necessary.
Freak mishaps of Titanic caliber may be sufficiently rare for a given Game Mechanic, but the Emergency Procedures of a particular Interstellar Authority are going to based on "real life situations" in that milieu, not the odds of a Game Mechanic.
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Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Actually, the Titanic comes to mind as an example of the "kind of incompetence [where] you can ... run smack into a LGG doing 1,000 Km/sec...".
Not directly related: Always keep in mind that every note, warning and caution in the starship manual is there because someone actually did it. Even when you're reading it, asking yourself, "Who would be stupid enough to do that?" the answer is somebody. Never leave out the stupid human trick factor when determining whether something might happen "under normal operating procedures".
Actually, I did think about that after I posted.
Agreed. And that is the point. I have presumed that in this discussion we are taking an "in-game" perspective, and that emergency procedures are being developed on that basis. In the real world, the US Coast Guard implements its procedures for (and has contingencies that relate to) even the actions of "stupid" sailors and passengers (and the attendant resulting consequences), not just for those who followed all of the procedures properly. They don't just say: "Well, that was dumb. That's their problem, not ours". The Coast Guard will follow its standard rescue/emergency procedures, after which the idiots in question will just have to face serious legal issues and inquiries after the crisis is resolved.
And that is aside from legitimate system failures and genuine freak occurrences that occur, that anyone (whether Coast Guard, SPA/IISS, or Ship Masters) are forced to respond to.
To sum up: After 10,000 years, there WILL BE standard emergency procedures in place of some sort (both at the SPA/IISS dirtside or in-system, and/or aboard ship). The thread is trying to determine what (reasonable) procedures those would be (from an "in-game/in-universe" perspective), in light of the realities of space travel & jump drive as detailed in the Traveller Universe.
Unless I have totally missed the point of the thread.
Depends on where you are. The misjump rule is (a maximum possible role of) 36 parsecs from your departure point, not from civilization. In the Spinward Marches, that could leave you coming out at Mora with help minutes away - or in some empty bit of space 2 parsecs from the nearest star (there are a few spots like that).
To end up 36 parsecs from civilization presupposes that you're travelling through some region of space that is either extraordinarily sparsely settled or bereft of stars.
Yes, that's why we're discussing the fusion microplants. I'm particularly fond of solar panels as emergency equipment as well, but that's not much help when there's no sun in the hex.
Reserve power, yes. ELB, not necessarily. For a merchant ship receiving scheduled maintenance, using refined fueling (or a fuel purifier), and conducting normal operations (i.e. not trying to jump from inside 100 diameters), the odds of misjump are nil - it ain't gonna happen. I can see merchants objecting to being compelled to surrender paying space so they can carry emergency equipment that's only needed by the idiots who break rules. They'd push for efforts to identify and punish rulebreakers instead: requiring certification for passenger service and making refined fuel and safe piloting a condition of the certification, yanking the certification if you gamble with the lives of paying customers, or imposing fines, or yanking the pilot's license, or some such intervention - anything that doesn't put the burden of little rulebreakers' behavior on the backs of big law-abiding corporations
I can however see ELBs being installed after construction if some free trader wants a little insurance when he goes adventuring, or as part of construction for warships and exploration ships that might find themselves obliged to attempt a jump under difficult circumstances, that sort of thing.
RTG?
MegaTrav says ELBs draw 0.002 Mw. CT doesn't say. I don't know about the other systems.
In fact (as an aside), I don't know why Solar Panels wouldn't be a standard back-up power system on most vessels (just for emergency purposes).
Wouldn't help in interstellar space, but certainly would help for in-system emergencies.
RTG = Radio-Thermal Generator.
Heat generated from radioactive decay of radioisotopes used to produce power. It is what many of NASA's space probes have used to power their on-board systems.
