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encapsulating a star

TheDS

SOC-13
All this talk about ringworlds and moving Venus into Earth orbit has refreshed a bit of my memory about a project I came up with a few years back to encapsulate a star, and I figured this would be as good a time as any to let you all in on it.

Next week, I'm leaving Earth for a while to perform a science experiment: I'm going to encapsulate a star, so as to capture all its energy and live on the construct, something like a Dyson Sphere, but not quite.

For one, I want to live on the OUTSIDE. This will allow the entire inside to be covered in solar energy collectors or whatever, and the entire outside to be usable as living space. There will be no permanent noonday sun, and the stars will be visible. I want this thing to be capable of surviving for a very long time, even after some kind of disaster, so living on the outside means we need no expensive, prone-to-fail gravity generators that the Puppeteers could sabotage, no walls to hold in the air, no colliding with shadow squares...

Note: The following numbers may be slightly inaccurate, as I did this planning a few years back and am going from memory.

Initial thoughts:
At a distance of about 5 million miles from the Sun, you would feel a force of 1 Gee. So why not build our shell at that distance? Heat. I found out that it's REALLY HOT at that distance, and you're going to have to do something with it. The surface of the shell at that distance would be pretty much unlivable.

Ok, so we need to build in the Hab zone.

Next, to keep the land interesting, we need some mechanism to allow it to change. How about crustal plates, floating on a sea of magma? Some number-fiddling, and I found out that with a shell about 330 miles thick, if it was Earth-density, it didn't matter what the distance from the star was, my surface gravity would be 1 Gee. 330 miles was probably good enough... 30 miles for the crust, 300 for the magma. Probably enough mass to keep it under enough pressure to keep it hot and liquid. Maybe we'll have to shrink the size of the shell a bit, so we're less than an AU, just to make sure it stays molten. I don't know how reasonable that part is, though.

So you're living on the surface, and you look up, and it's always night time. How are crops supposed to grow? How are we supposed to appreciate colors and stuff? Well, we could have lots of towers that provide sunlight for a region, and these towers could be set to be on half the day and off the other half. There would be one time zone for the entire structure, if they are all on and off at the same time.

But towers would recreate the distasteful problem of always having your sun in the same location. So maybe build some orbital suns? Huge space stations that would orbit the construct, blasting their fusion rockets at the surface... I dunno, it just sounds wrong. Maybe we could just coopt a couple stars to do it?

A shell 330 miles thick, even 5 million miles in radius would require quite a few suns' worth of mass, one that's most of an AU in radius would require HUNDREDS if not thousands! There's going to be a rather lot of empty star systems... or a large dark hole in the sky that some one's going to notice, and I think something like that is going to take more than a couple minutes to build. But an object with a few hundred solar masses could surely get a star to orbit it much faster than the 2 years something at the Mars orbital distance would require. Still, I'm sure the day is going to be a month long at least. The artificial suns are looking more attractive, since they can orbit much closer and be over the horizon quickly. A few hundred of those, in varying orbits to treat the whole surface to light, would make a spectacular ballet.

With so much mass requirement, it may take the energy output of a galaxy to build something that size. Back to the 5 million mile radius... or as close as feasible. This means we need a cooler star than a G2. I believe I determined an M8 would be needed. Something like that... is it going to turn into a giant any time soon, or is it going to just burn quietly for a few trillion more years? I want this place to last a while.

Then it occurs to me that we are going to need to move the interior star around, maybe replace it once in a while. We're also going to need conduits to get all that happy energy from the inside to the outside. This is not easy if you have continental shelves floating on magma... your access tunnel's top point will always be moving, or if it's fixed in place, will cause havoc with the other plates. You'll need at least 3 access ports, maybe 6, to control the location of the star and keep it centered. So much for free-floating continents! Well, maybe you could get by... trillions of square miles IS a pretty big number.

And what about impacts with other objects? And spacecraft that manage to teleport themselves into the inside of the shell using some as-yet undiscovered technology? I think a black globe and a forest of early warning satellites will go a long way to helping out with some of that, as well as having a tough defense network, segregated to reduce the threat from things like superconductor plagues and Virus.

Still, if civilization should manage to fall back to the stone age, well, 30 miles of crust is a lot of space to hide ore deposits or caches of knowledge.

Ok, so the burning questions are these:
1) what kind of star to encapsulate?
2) what radius to make the shell?
3) what thickness and materials? Concrete or metal lawns are out of the question.
4) how do we make it feel like being on a planet? This includes things like the day-night cycle and growing crops.
5) defending against natural and intentional damage should be done how?
6) how resistant to the wears of time can we make this?
7) would it just be better to build a series of ringworlds instead?

Have at it, then.
 
The mass requirements are simply ridiculous.

You'd need to be creating matter.
 
1) what kind of star to encapsulate?
A small one
2) what radius to make the shell?
Just far enough so that the star exerts a 1G pull on anything standing on the shell
3) what thickness and materials? Concrete or metal lawns are out of the question.
carbon nanotube fibre matting, synthetic diamond fibre, lots and lots of rock
4) how do we make it feel like being on a planet? This includes things like the day-night cycle and growing crops.
have gaps in the shell and mirrors
5) defending against natural and intentional damage should be done how?
use the mirrors above as weapons
6) how resistant to the wears of time can we make this?
provided you can set up some sort of "rock cycle" then it should last a long time, especially with nanobot repair drones
7) would it just be better to build a series of ringworlds instead?
I've come to prefer the Culture orbital approach myself
 
You missed the most important question:

0) Why do this at all?

Seriously, if it's land area you want, then there's much easier ways to get it (ringworlds, orbital rings/haloes, space stations, terraforming etc). What with all the extra considerations you need plus the huge amount of mass required here, it seems too much hassle for what you want to get.
 
What about a ringworld-without-the-shadow-squares-design that has rectangular sections of the ring rotating on a pivot away from the sun? The entire ring could be connected by support struts - imagine strips of cardboard between two hula hoops. Since I'm pretty sure large amounts of handwavium would be necessary for any kind of stellar-scale megastructure, just build-in gravity generators and don't spin the ring at all.
Ah...the joys of being a born-again munchkin.
 
Even a few 20Mm diameter, 5Mm wide spin bands could do far more viable land than any single world. Put them in the hab zone, shared orbit, and solar panel the heck out of the outsides. Reduces bio-contamination hazards, and increases potential biodiversity. With far less infrastructure mass.
Give them all an axial tilt just enough to keep some daylight hitting the inside far wall, and you've got a great thing going.

GO planetary scale and you've still got room (and materials) to work with.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
The mass requirements are simply ridiculous.

You'd need to be creating matter.
Well, that might be cheaper - energy-wise - than scouring every star system within 100 lightyears to deconstruct every planet and star... :confused:

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
1) what kind of star to encapsulate?
A small one
2) what radius to make the shell?
Just far enough so that the star exerts a 1G pull on anything standing on the shell
3) what thickness and materials? Concrete or metal lawns are out of the question.
carbon nanotube fibre matting, synthetic diamond fibre, lots and lots of rock
4) how do we make it feel like being on a planet? This includes things like the day-night cycle and growing crops.
have gaps in the shell and mirrors
5) defending against natural and intentional damage should be done how?
use the mirrors above as weapons
6) how resistant to the wears of time can we make this?
provided you can set up some sort of "rock cycle" then it should last a long time, especially with nanobot repair drones
7) would it just be better to build a series of ringworlds instead?
I've come to prefer the Culture orbital approach myself
Gaps and mirrors, that's a pretty interesting idea. Something like two shells... have to instead of having physical space gaps, make large transparent areas, so we don't have to build giant walls or worry about the atmosphere leaking into the star.

Originally posted by Malenfant:
You missed the most important question:

0) Why do this at all?

Seriously, if it's land area you want, then there's much easier ways to get it (ringworlds, orbital rings/haloes, space stations, terraforming etc). What with all the extra considerations you need plus the huge amount of mass required here, it seems too much hassle for what you want to get.
I guess I just want a Type 2 civilization. :D Yes, it is most assuredly a hassle, but you don't get to be Type 2 by being afraid of adversity. :D But I am mostly interested in making something that is theoretically possible using technologies we know (or expect to) work today. Building a ringworld would be the same magnatude of ridiculous, but I don't think the mass of Jupiter is really appropriate for this. Blocks 40% of neutrinoes? NEUTRINOES!!!!!? Yeah, you can keep your scrith, but if I find I have to have it, I'll steal it right back. ;)

Well, let me just say that I KNOW it would be far more matter/energy efficient to build a bunch of planet-sized ships, as they could more easily be moved around, and you could spread your eggs around to multiple places rather than havng them all in one basket, and I might wind up going this route in the end, but I'd prefer the other route I started on, or something ssimilar to it.
 
This sounds like a fun idea - maybe not the most efficient idea, but an interesting one. I like how it replicates a super-sized planet fairly nicely.

If you want free floating continents AND access ports, you could have part of the structure fixed and leave the rest floating. Say, there could be a giant fixed "super-continent" built as a ring around a sort of fixed opening, and linked to the understructure of the sphere. Trouble is, you might need some funny way to keep continents from crashing into it.

Also - once you have this sphere - what exactly are you going to do with all the energy?
 
What type of people build a dyson's sphere? xenophobic perhaps.
What type of people build an external living sphere... A silicon life form might prefer it...don't know why organics would prefer it. Night is only nice to elude daytime.

All in all, if your the emperor of the known universe (ok part of it) such a feat might be your way of leaving a mark for a million years or more.

Savage
 
Originally posted by Savage:
All in all, if your the emperor of the known universe (ok part of it) such a feat might be your way of leaving a mark for a million years or more.
It does sound like perfect 'folly' fodder (in the architectural sense). I can't really see any other reason for building one.

If you're advanced enough to build a dyson sphere (getting the material tech sorted out is a feat in itself) without it flying apart under gravitational stresses or moving off centre and crashing into the sun then surely you're advanced enough to travel to other star systems and colonise or terraform worlds, or even just make an artifical planet or three.
 
There's an old (published 1974) book, The Next Ten Thousand Years by Adrian Berry, which talks about this. It's quite dated, and can't take recent events (the escalation of terrorism, America's cultural stagnation, MANY other things) into account, but it has a discussion of Dyson Spheres.

Kinda reminds me of a Shlock Mercenary strip where the author describes a Dyson Sphere which has holes in it (I'm sure I'm getting it wrong though).
 
I've got it. Make a Dyson shell and have the inhabitants live neither inside it or outside it, bu in cyberspace. the Dyson sphere is a giant computer that simulates the surface of a giant planet. You can leave this cybershell through ports that assemble people from the cyberspecifications into real atoms so they can venture on the outside.
 
I like it


Didn't you post a more detailed version of the supercomputer idea a while ago?
 
You don't need a computer anywhere near that large to run a 'virtual world' (particularly given that involves light speed lag in electrical signals travelling over the vast distances).

Hell, it doesn't even need to be the size of a planet to do that.
 
I'm thinking of a Dyson Sphere which doesn't completely encapsulate, physically, a star - the city- to continent-sized "pieces" are connected, but they can sever these connections and move.

At least, according to Shlock Mercenary.
 
I did a Dysons shere campaign a few years ago.
I used as an Ancients dumping ground of species, equiptment etc.
Elves, dwaves, cha-wookies, ralbor, and dragons. You name it they were there.
The players and i didn't care about the numbers. It was just a fun place to hang out.
 
About a year ago I did some calculations using Studio MAX. I was intrigued by the idea of Dyson Spheres, when I read a website that details the background of a Star Trek rpg set on the Dyson Sphere discovered by the crew of the Enterprise in the Next Gen episode, 'Relics'.

I did some calculations and it's quite mind numbing. I know these things are big (they completely encompass a star out to a radius of around 1 au) but I didn't realise how little I really comprehended just how big. Taking that Earth's diameter is 13,000 km and the Dyson Sphere's is 200 million km, that gives Earth a circumference of 40,820 km and the Dyson Sphere, 628 million km. the Earth could repeat itself around the equator 15,384 times. That's around 42 Earths for every single degree around the equator.

The surface area of Earth according to my calculations is approximately just over 1 billion square km. The surface of the Dyson Sphere would be approximately 125,600 billion square km.

That means that you would be able to have 125,600 Earths worth of surface area.

It would probably take about that many planets worth of raw material to make the bloody thing too.

It's crazy stuff allright!

With all this in mind, I'm frankly quite amused that the Trek Dyson Sphere actually had a curve to it when you were no more than a kilometer or two above the surface. Silly Trek people =) I guess it was a bit of artistic license just to get across the idea that it was a sphere.

Crow
 
Malenfant said,
You don't need a computer anywhere near that large to run a 'virtual world' (particularly given that involves light speed lag in electrical signals travelling over the vast distances).

Hell, it doesn't even need to be the size of a planet to do that.
Depends on the size of the virtual world, your simulating. You could be simulating a virtual world the size of the Sun for example. A virtual world tends to drop out of the realm of science fiction. Simulations don't have to be 100% faithful to the real universe. A fantasy simulation with magic spells and monsters is equally possible.

Another reason to build a Dyson Sphere is to simulate a number of discreet worlds in one place. A character can travel from one world to the next without resort to FTL drives.

Another idea is to simulate a time machine. You are probably well aware that a real time machine is most likely impossible, but with a cybersphere, it becomes possible to revisit the past in a manner of speaking.. A cybersphere Dyson Sphere can hold alot of information, if we store all our historical records in the cybersphere and include some creative programming to fill in the gaps of our knowledge of the past, the cybersphere can do a plausible simulation of Earth's past in any era that we might have a record of. Since the simulation is entirely consistent with all our records, a human transcribed into the simulation, for all intents and purposes as far as he is concerned is in the past, he can check out any history book he likes, and since its all included in the sphere's database, no discrepencies arise. The cybersphere even has the entire contents of the transcribed human's brain, so everything he witnesses is also consistent with his personal memory, he is virtually reliving the past. Because the cybersphere's computational resources is so vast, the simulated visitor can also change history in the simulation through his own personal actions. The cybersphere can also take simulated persons and make then real through nanotechnology. Nanotechnology works both ways, uploading real persons into simulations and downloading simulations into real persons. A simulated Abe Lincoln, can for instance be manufactured by the cybersphere, this created human will of course think he's Abe Lincoln, knowledge of the past is incomplete of course. No one knows everything Abe Lincoln ever thought or all his memories, but the cybersphere can guess what they might have been and fill in the gaps. A Cybersphere could run several different time periods of Earth at once.
 
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