End of the Solomani Rim War
- Thread starter JBRocky
- Start date
This is an interesting question. I don't think there are any canonical references to the Dingir League after 582, when the League worlds joined the Imperium -- making it one of the first Rim States to do so. RoF makes it sound like the League was actively petitioning to join, while MGT:SR makes it sound like the League succumbed to intense pressure.
Although the League worlds were part of the Ziru Sirka and in 1105 many still have Vilani names, they don't seem to have retained a dominant Vilani cultural presence through the Long Night. Both Gashidda and Iilike, for example, had enthusiastic supporters of the Solomani Cause.
For whatever reason, it doesn't appear that the League worlds re-formed as a full member state when the Charter for Confederation was signed in 871.
Maybe the worlds of the Dingir League retained just enough of Vilani subculture to resist re-forming as a member-state under the Confederation. (Alternatively, maybe the Confederation didn't want to allow a member-state with a large Vilani population.)
Although the League worlds were part of the Ziru Sirka and in 1105 many still have Vilani names, they don't seem to have retained a dominant Vilani cultural presence through the Long Night. Both Gashidda and Iilike, for example, had enthusiastic supporters of the Solomani Cause.
For whatever reason, it doesn't appear that the League worlds re-formed as a full member state when the Charter for Confederation was signed in 871.
Maybe the worlds of the Dingir League retained just enough of Vilani subculture to resist re-forming as a member-state under the Confederation. (Alternatively, maybe the Confederation didn't want to allow a member-state with a large Vilani population.)
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
The Dingir League probably did not exist under the antebellum Solomani Autonomous Region/Confederation. Imperial policy discourages political alliances between its member worlds as a matter of general policy, and as the Solomani were attempting to maintain at least a facade of loyalty to the Emperor (if only to hold off the inevitable war for as long as they could), it is likely that they discouraged such entities as well, at least within their coreward, and formerly Imperial, regions.
The Solomani Confederation was significantly reorganized after the war, and it was probably during this time that the Confederation factions (including some of the old polities) surfaced. Of course, Dingir couldn't be a part of that development officially, although I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Dingir -- as well as Terra -- was represented by some form of 'government in exile' within the existing Confederation structure.
Dingir held out for several months after the Solomani lost control of the Vegan systems in 1001. The Battle of Dingir (early 1002) was a major engagement of the war, in fact, and one which saw the effective destruction of the Solomani Grand Fleet, thus clearing the way for the Imperial assault on Terra later that year.
In essence, Dingir was where the Solomani lost the war; Terra was where they secured their independence despite losing the war.
Just a detail here about the title of the thread: IIRC the Solomani Rim war didn't technically end, just an armistice was signed and extended sine die, but the Imperium and the Solomani Confederation ae stil ltechnically at war in CT Goden Era, as no peace was agreed or signed.
While this is a technicism, I guess it has to do with the restarting of the war in 1117 (after Strephon death), as it's not the Solomai declaring war to the Imperium, but resuming an uneded war (and so, I guess they have a easier way to convince their own people).
In the meanwhile, Dingir, along many other zones, is under administration of the Imperium, but as occupied territory (even if their inhabitants are not conacieus, or even aware, of it, having forgotten the war has not legally ended and having lived all their lives as Imperials).
While this is a technicism, I guess it has to do with the restarting of the war in 1117 (after Strephon death), as it's not the Solomai declaring war to the Imperium, but resuming an uneded war (and so, I guess they have a easier way to convince their own people).
In the meanwhile, Dingir, along many other zones, is under administration of the Imperium, but as occupied territory (even if their inhabitants are not conacieus, or even aware, of it, having forgotten the war has not legally ended and having lived all their lives as Imperials).
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The Solomani couldn't and wouldn't sign a peace treaty, without at least the return of Terra, and the Imperium believed that keeping and occupying the Solomani homeworld would destroy their ideological basis for superiority.
Also, it would be like handing Berlin, Leningrad and Stalingrad back to the Germans, after the Great Patriotic War.
Also, it would be like handing Berlin, Leningrad and Stalingrad back to the Germans, after the Great Patriotic War.
I think there is a distinct possibility that the Dingir League was reformed when the Solomani Confederation was formed, even Solomani & Aslan hints that the Old Earth Union was reformed. If Terra wanted to give itself more Political Power and entice some of the other Polities to join, couldn't other Polities have reformed?
Sure, it's possible. Canonical materials don't explicitly say that the League didn't reform. (Although Solomani and Aslan is really the only canonical source that even discusses member-states.)
Even then, Solomani & Aslan only mentions particularly important or notable member-states as of 1120, and there certainly could (should) be more of these polities both within that millieu and in other historical periods.
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MgT Solomani p.36, talks of multi-world alliances within the Confederation and the threat they represent to the Confederation as a whole. The Near Boötes League is the only one mentioned by name.
But look closely at that passage on page 36: "These states agreed or were induced to join the Confederation as individual worlds [emphasis added] but continue to maintain some of their old relationships, often formalised through reciprocal free trade pacts or mutual assistance treaties between their respective governments and Home Guards."
This is a very different thing than a member-state as described in Solomani & Aslan. One is an informal arrangement like the Council of Northeastern Governors in the US, while the other is a formal, semi-autonomous polity like the Federal Republic of Germany within the European Union. Vermont, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts might have a lot in common but they don't have their own military and they don't have an unified government.
Yes, they are "alliances" and not "states" in that text. They do mean different things, but I consider that to be a labeling semantic vis a vis internal units in the Confederation Regardless of their naming, the power of the "alliances" or "member states" is that the Confederation as a whole has concerns that these sub-units will bully nearby systems or destabilize the Confederation as a whole. Also going with the MgT is the more current canon source rather than DGP being in comparative limbo.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
At best, they form factions in the legislature; at worst, they maintain unitary militaries, and have expansionist policies.
I think if you lose the flavor implied by the DGP "member-states" wording, though, you lose something distinctive about the Solomani Confederation that makes it interesting and sets it apart. It is the Confederation of multi-stellar polities and tight alliances alongside individual member-worlds that gives the Confederation its flavor (and makes it less "monolithic" as an interstellar government). This plays into the recurrent Traveller theme of "Here is the Imperial stereotype-viewpoint of a single polity composed of racist Solomani" versus the far more complex set of opinions and political viewpoints across Confederation space that cause it to remain a Confederation instead of becoming a full Federation (to the consternation of the Party Centralist faction).
Totes agree. For what it's worth, somewhere I asked Don if the member-state concept had been officially retconned, but he said it was alive and was one of the reasons the T5SS started used four character alliance codes. Shortly thereafter an update of Magyar sector demarcated the worlds of the Wuan Technology Association, New Slavic Sodality, and Dootchen Estates.
Isn't it interesting how quickly and effectively the Solomani were able to respond to Strephon's assassination and launch an attack that recaptured Terra as well as big chunks of Daibei and Old Expanses? Even assuming they had the advantage of total surprise and were facing a reeling enemy, their initial success is pretty stunning.
I've sometimes wondered if maybe the Confederation had quietly moved to a war footing during the Fifth Frontier War, hoping to take advantage of a distracted Imperium. Of course, that war was over and done well before the Solomani would have had time to do anything.
But in response to this lost opportunity, perhaps the Confederation developed a series of contingency plans that would allow them to rapidly take advantage of the next Imperial crisis. Heavy fleet elements were slowly re-deployed closer to the border, the admirals all equipped with several different pre-set war plans, ready for activation. Five to ten years would be about the right timeframe to make these adjustments.
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This is one of the things I like about the DGP Solomani Confederation, its totally different from the Imperium All the different member States and how different things revolve around it, makes for different roleplaying opportunities.
My guess here (not supported by any canon text I've read) is that the Solomani Confederation probably began to allow those autonomous su-states since its foundation as Solomani Autonomous Región, well before the Solomani War.
My reasoning to think so goes from historical reasons (after all, Solomani are proud of their history, and those regions that survived the Long Night are probably a source of pride for them) to strategical reasons (beware the Imperium, as if Solomani autonomy is taken off, so will yours as a regional power).
In this way, I guess they restated at least some of the semi-autonomous entities, as Old Earth Federation or DingirLeague. Not so sure about the Vegans, as they are not even human, and so (in Solomani eyes) they must be supervised.
My reasoning to think so goes from historical reasons (after all, Solomani are proud of their history, and those regions that survived the Long Night are probably a source of pride for them) to strategical reasons (beware the Imperium, as if Solomani autonomy is taken off, so will yours as a regional power).
In this way, I guess they restated at least some of the semi-autonomous entities, as Old Earth Federation or DingirLeague. Not so sure about the Vegans, as they are not even human, and so (in Solomani eyes) they must be supervised.
I think that's basically right. Most of the canon suggests that the Rimward states that joined the Imperium were dissolved upon entry, including the Easter Concord (which joined in 426), Turin Consolidation (520), Dingir League (582), Arcturus Federation (583), Vegan Polity (either 550 or 586, depending on source), and the Old Earth Union (588).
However, the Bootean League as well as several polities in Magyar and Alpha Crucis remained independent and never joined the Imperium.
This is where things get really weird. In 704 Margaret I signs the charter for the Solomani Autonomous Region, which encompasses a huge swath of space outside the Imperium, including all those independent polities -- to say nothing of all the worlds that were presuambly within Aslan space.
No one has really ever explained why she thought she had the authority to do that, or why she chose 50 parsecs as the limit. "All of you independent worlds, I declare you independent!"
So anyway, when the Autonomous Region was declared there were already several interstellar polities within the Solomani Sphere that had never joined the Imperium. And presumably, any of the polities within the Sphere that had been dissolved were free to reform. Some, like the Consolidation of Turin, did, while others probably chose to remain separate. We really don't know what was happening on the Dingir League worlds during this time.
As Solomani and Aslan described it, the key to the Charter of Confederation (signed in 871) was that it allowed these polities to join the Confederation as member-states, and were able to maintain self-rule and their own military forces.
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Because it was planned for. They had total surprise for Terra. The Phoenix Project survived! In the GM's section of MgT Solomani Rim pp.113-114
And to be launched at the right time with a strike from the Confederation Navy plus the secret forces...
Mwah hah hah! Solomani Uber Alles!
