Engineering Chrome: Variations in Book 2 Drives

[jawillroy]

Just bouncing around a few ideas in my head. I'm working with this cozy little small-ship, Book 2 Proto TU, and thinking in terms of a) PC goodies and b) extra chrome for various ships and their drives.

It occurs to me that different worlds might more routinely produce one sort of drive than another; not just with regard to tech but also with habit and custom; also, that within the general umbrella of the various drive letters there might be some variation in performance, tonnage, cost, efficiency and so on.

Such variations would be minor - else the drive would fall in another class - and I think that for most sorts of adventures those variations would be largely irrelevant. One wouldn't want to change the numbers too broadly for fear of breaking the game... But it's tempting to offer up the possibility that a ship's crew with a high level of engineering skill might be able to create notable improvements in their craft's performance (<i>I've made a few modifications myself...</i>)

What have you lot done along these lines, if anything?

It goes both directions. For example: On worlds IMTU where the tech isn't (technically) able to support Jump Drives, but there's an A-Port, I might judge that, yes, they do produce jump capable ships there, and what they do is classified variously under drives A-D, but they're more expensive than they would be on a tech 9 world and they tend to mass a bit more. One world might have a specialty of a particular drive: "Wirbauen Engineering of Marden" might produce a superior maneuver drive that specs out as D-class in tonnage but performs as a class E engine and costs as much as an F... Perhaps a high performance drive like that might be finicky, though, requiring more attention from the engineer to keep it running. Too extreme?

One would want to avoid too much in the way of innovation. I think tweaking an A-jump drive to operate like a B-jump drive alters the structure of the game a bit much...

I'd not want to get so variable that we throw up our hands and say "O just use high guard!"

 

[aramis]

In TL8- A Ports, I always just assumed Type A drives are imported and locally assembled.

 

[jawillroy]

In TL8- A Ports, I always just assumed Type A drives are imported and locally assembled.

And sold with a markup? Or no?

In the past, I've basically done the same as you suggest, not assuming any markup - for convenience's sake as much as anything else. It's just that looking at MTU's subsector maps, that often doesn't make any sense. On the one hand, there's a few worlds where that explanation works. But especially in my frontier areas, you can find some decent-sized J-1 clusters with only *one* A-Port, and that below tech - when there are worlds nearby of sufficient tech overall, but no A-Port.

This makes me think that there is something about the production of jump drives which requires something which is usually, but not always, achievable at roundabout tech 9, and which under certain circumstances is available at lower tech. In the OTU one talks of Lanthanum coils and Zucchai crystals... perhaps it can be surmised that the process of refining these things requires a certain level of sophistication, but that in some situations it they might naturally occur in an extremely pure state. So, supposing a frontier cluster with an average tech of 6 or 7, a couple of tech 9 or A worlds with B-ports, but only one world with an A-Port, at tech 7 or 8. That world has to import almost all of its interstellar-tech... but it, alone of the cluster, has access to a supply of naturally occurring, high-purity handwavium.

(I dislike fiddling my rolls: I'd rather play them out as they lie.)

 

[aramis]

In general, I've considered those to be locally assembled from parts shipped, with those local parts available (brackets, etc) making up the difference.

Now, under CT Bk2, the Minimum TL of an A Port is 7 (1 on the die, +6 on the A-port). (The -2 for Gov't D requires a min pop of 9... which is a +2 itself, and thus cancels. Th -4 for port X can't co-occur with an A-Port.)

So, I assume that the higher TL materials are a major part of the cost, but probably not the majority, and that at least 50% of the drive structure can be manufactured at TL7.

 

[jawillroy]

In a way, I think that the puzzle I'm working with is less centered around "Why a lower tech world has an A Port" and more "Why a higher tech world wouldn't." With the oddity of that tech 7 A-port, one can fairly easily point to some outside agent supplying the necessary gear: especially if that world is part of a larger, vigorous empire. But looking at that same cluster of worlds, you've got a tech B world with a B port - that's where I wonder, "what is it about these people that they could mange to produce jump drives - but don't or won't." Some worlds like that IMTU are simply disinterested in the Beyond for any number of historical reasons. Some are quite capable of producing jump drives but are forbidden by treaty from doing so (defeated former powers.) Some might just not have access to the right kind of handwavium.

But this is a digression: the thing that I'm trying to get to is not how all these different worlds might produce the same tech and the same ships: I'd like to see how one can use the variations between worlds to inform the creation of different sorts of craft.

An Imperium as envisioned in the OTU lends itself to a sort of homogeneity that I'd like to move away from IMTU. By going with smaller, more insular political and cultural pockets, I'm hoping to create a little more variety than what I find in the OTU. At the same time, doing that in the context of just LBB123 is providing something of a challenge.

 

[sid6.7]

i think your probably right that there might be variances between
empires or single independent systems...but the imperium would probably require
standardization for most of the A/B stuff so independent stuff would probably
not be in very much use.... so to speak...

you can do it if you like though its a neat idea to add some flair to YTU....

there is room for all in traveller....

 

[BlackBat242]

Warning... nitpick alert!


The TL shown for the world...like the population and law level... are for the WORLD ONLY.

The starport is assumed (in canon) to be a separate entity, with its laws, population, and tech level separate and distinct from the world it serves.

 

[jawillroy]

The starport is assumed (in canon) to be a separate entity, with its laws, population, and tech level separate and distinct from the world it serves.

True, that's how it ended up developing. But go back to LBB123, and I think you'll find that there's extraterritoriality observed, but there's really not a statement regarding the other stuff.

Once you posit a broad, essentially uniform Imperium as per the OTU, it becomes easy to justify an A-Port *anywhere* you care to put it: it's an Imperial project, a route of prime interest, etcetera - It's a deus ex machina. I'm working with a smaller scale of things, and I want to keep ports a little more local in character.

 

[samuelvss]

In a way, I think that the puzzle I'm working with is less centered around "Why a lower tech world has an A Port" and more "Why a higher tech world wouldn't." With the oddity of that tech 7 A-port, one can fairly easily point to some outside agent supplying the necessary gear: especially if that world is part of a larger, vigorous empire. .

I like where you're going, but a higher tech world may not want the trade/cultural exposure/military competition that a class A starport might bring. That does not even mean they are not producing jump drives, but rather they are not selling or allowing them to be commercially installed locally.

The government(s) of a world may have all of the makings of a dozen class A starports, but they are all in the form of military and government bases.

I'm sure those with better imaginations can think of other reasons.

As to why a minimum TL, think about it not as to whether the TL7 world can produce jump drives, but whether they can provide sufficient support for a starport, be it from utilities, workers, etc. Certain components, if manufactured locally, can make local assembly of jump drives more commercially feasible, and these require computer-driven laser machining.

Think about a consideration not addressed directly in the OTU; how many TL's can one efficiently "jump" in training personnel. We may take a TL4 soldier and teach him to use a TL8 weapon much quicker than we can take a TL1 warrior and teach him to use a TL13 weapon. In this vein, it is rational that starport offworlders would need to rely on locally obtained help. Then jump from TL7 to TL9 is perhaps the largest that is practical for such help.

Or not.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, one thing to remember (as sort of mentioned by BlackBat) is that the world very likely did not build the starport or any yard facilities associated with it.

Perhaps that location is more central for the building entity, and with an A-port there, all the other ports deteriorate to a B-level or below. (Just look at the American experience with railroads, highways, etc. and their effects on some towns.)

Perhaps that system is at a J-1 bridge, and it grows to a A-port because everybody (well, everybody who doesn't have J-2) has to go through there. (Look at airport hubs and how they become hubs for everything else.)

Perhaps the lo-TL world is a place people like to stop a while and relax while their ships are being worked on. (Maybe it's those green dancing women, or that they don't have violence in their society.)

Perhaps the taxes are low there. (You know, to encourage development.)

Perhaps there is something else in that system: major mining of a belt, lots of GGs for fuel, etc. (I won't create with just LBB3 anymore. All those other worlds in the system might be lots more interesting than the "main" one. Especially because the main world is decided solely based on population. I have plenty of places with a beautiful world in the habitable zone {x765xxx}, and the moon is the main world due to pop {x2008xx}. Where would you rather spend your two weeks during annual maintenance?)

 

[atpollard]

Well, one thing to remember (as sort of mentioned by BlackBat) is that the world very likely did not build the starport or any yard facilities associated with it.

Would a world devistated by the Long Night (or a shorter period of isolation due to some war) not learn its lesson and insist on a certain level of technological independance? Even if the Imperium built the class B Starport, MY TL B world would make darn sure that the planetary Navy maintained a TL B, class A starport to protect against complete isolation.

 

[sid6.7]

Would a world devistated by the Long Night (or a shorter period of isolation due to some war) not lean its lesson and insist on a certain level of technological independance? Even if the Imperium built the class B Starport, MY TL B world would make darn sure that the planetary Navy maintained a TL B, class A starport to protect against complete isolation.

you would think so...however gov'ts can always screw things up...esp. if its 3-4 generations down the road...

 

[BlackBat242]

Or 50+ generations... 1000+ years since the re-founding of the Imperium (now called the 3rd)?

A long time in which to forget... what nation now takes its military/economic policy direction from the Norman invasion of Saxon Britain?

 

[atpollard]

Or 50+ generations... 1000+ years since the re-founding of the Imperium (now called the 3rd)?

A long time in which to forget... what nation now takes its military/economic policy direction from the Norman invasion of Saxon Britain?

How many times since the Norman invasion has England forgotten that it is an island and completely dismantled its Navy and shipyards to build vast Tank Divisions designed to sweep across the plains? That is how fundamental a change it would be for a star-faring world to give up all starship manufacturing capability.

I design commercial sites to account for the chance of flooding in a once per century and once per 500 year storm events. Some events cultures do not forget - even after 1000 years.

 

[aramis]

Given the realities* of Bk2, it would appear one of the undocumented** efforts of Cleon Zhunastu's Imperium was to lower the bar on jump tech... so that TL 9 worlds can build J3 and TL 10 can build J4.

* presuming, of course, that one considers the rules themselves to replicate the "reality" of the OTU.

** not documented as in not mentioned in canon.

Given that the long night killed off most trade, that means any worlds not self-sufficient would have been killed, or died back to sustainable populations.

I can see that causing a reticence to rely upon trade. such a traumatic event would have ramifications reshaping entire cultural mythologies and memes.

Much like Russians are still affected by Gengis Khan... or the UK by William the Conquerer... or most of europe and the Americas by Yeshua ben Yosef bar Nazara∂. William the Conquerer's effects are still seen. His willingness to take england reshaped the language AND mythology. ANd created an enmity between france and england that is only now resolving... remember, "WOG's begin at Calais!"

 

[jawillroy]

Would a world devistated by the Long Night (or a shorter period of isolation due to some war) not learn its lesson and insist on a certain level of technological independance? Even if the Imperium built the class B Starport, MY TL B world would make darn sure that the planetary Navy maintained a TL B, class A starport to protect against complete isolation.

IMTU, the Long Night is a much more recent event, and so If the world were really all *that* devastated by the Long Night then chances are the place isn't in any position to produce its own A-port anyway... and a world which survived the Long Night strong enough to produce jump drives might well come to the conclusion that "We don't need spacers here, anyway. We've done fine on our own for centuries."

 

[jawillroy]

Given that the long night killed off most trade, that means any worlds not self-sufficient would have been killed, or died back to sustainable populations.

I can see that causing a reticence to rely upon trade. such a traumatic event would have ramifications reshaping entire cultural mythologies and memes.

I'm inclined to think that this past history of isolation and deprivation is likely to result in a certain general animosity between Spacers and Worlders - one which lends itself pretty easily to being a well-used color in the GM's palette.

 

[atpollard]

... and a world which survived the Long Night strong enough to produce jump drives might well come to the conclusion that "We don't need spacers here, anyway. We've done fine on our own for centuries."

That is not an unreasonable supposition - a world might think like that. I would suggest that there is very little incentive for a world to push much beyond TL 10 without starships and interstellar trade since the majority of the high TL breakthroughs happen in the area of starship technology.

Such a world is in for a rude awakening - like Japan at the arrival of Commodore Perry. "Welcome to the new century, and boy are you in trouble."

 

[jawillroy]

That is not an unreasonable supposition - a world might think like that. I would suggest that there is very little incentive for a world to push much beyond TL 10 without starships and interstellar trade since the majority of the high TL breakthroughs happen in the area of starship technology.

Such a world is in for a rude awakening - like Japan at the arrival of Commodore Perry. "Welcome to the new century, and boy are you in trouble."

Your reference got me curious - the 19th century is a weak spot in my otherwise satisfactory education - and I bounced over to Wiki. I had no idea at all that the Japanese referred to Perry's vessels (and other foreign, modern ships) as "Kurokufune," or Black Ships.

Quite independent of this knowledge, IMTU I'd been naming the vast, official Imperial trade ships The Black Ships. While I'm happy to see that there's some consonance between what I'd been planning up and what happened historically. I'm a little galled that I have to rely on coincidence, and can't take credit for the reference.

*Smacks forehead* And I thought I studied history...

 

[aramis]

Perry's arrival ws a mutifold shock; Perry brought advanced firearms, which said, the Japanese had outlawed firearms as a vilation of bushido. Had the Perry expedition NOT forced Japan to the "20th century" we might not have seen WW2 on the pacific.

Much the same situation as Afghanistan... we force technology upon them, and then years later they use that very same technology against us.

In any case, I do concur that, like the japanese, most long night worlds would react poorly at recontact, and then probably overcompensate, much like the japanese did post Perry.