escape pods
- Thread starter jasper
- Start date
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There are also emergency rescue balls and vacc suits in case of emergency.
There was a thread about this a while back...
One suggestion I borrowed from that discussion was to have a central compartment on a ship that can act as your panic room or lifepod or whatever until help arrives.
There was a thread about this a while back...
One suggestion I borrowed from that discussion was to have a central compartment on a ship that can act as your panic room or lifepod or whatever until help arrives.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
Most ships bigger than a couple of hundred tons have a small craft or two that could double up as a lifeboat. The general opinion seems to be that dedicated lifeboats are a waste of space, since most disasters will:
1. Kill everybody before they can escape,
2. Strand you in deep space, or
3. Happen where other ships can rescue you.
1. Kill everybody before they can escape,
2. Strand you in deep space, or
3. Happen where other ships can rescue you.
Yep lifeboat is the Traveller standard, but there's also personal reentry kits and a variety of other items.
There are also the Kinunir's drop capsules.
I converted the 1dt drop capsule, did an armoured 2dt version and a 4dt verion (not on my site).
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Drop_Capsule.html
There are also the Kinunir's drop capsules.
I converted the 1dt drop capsule, did an armoured 2dt version and a 4dt verion (not on my site).
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/CT-Conversions-T20/Drop_Capsule.html
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
"that is not the general opinion, and the opinion is incorrect in any case."
Name three standard ships that have lifeboats.
Name a disaster that's more common than those I listed in which dedicated lifeboats would be useful.
Name three standard ships that have lifeboats.
Name a disaster that's more common than those I listed in which dedicated lifeboats would be useful.
well that explains it (smile). little black book adventure 4, leviathan, has deckplans with four "personnel capsules" meant for emergency escape. most other official and amateur deckplans and ship designs, however, are very weak in regards to emergency repairs/escapes. you are of course free to make any corrections or alterations you think are reasonable.
don't know what you mean by "standard". leviathan does, but I don't know if you'd consider that to be "standard". the other published deckplans that I'm aware of are small and not able to carry dedicated lifeboats. all mine above one thousand tons do.
the list you present is neither particularly common nor exhaustive. let's look at it.
1) everyone dying before they can evacuate. this will be rare. an engineering malfunction (badly maintained equipment) or accident(fire in the ship's control systems) or disaster (such as a meteor strike on engineering) could easily cripple a ship while leaving it mostly intact.
2) stranding in deep space. I suppose you mean interstellar space. this is common? if it is then I'd say that such vessels definitely carry jump boats (say, type S) to inform authorities of the problem and location of the stranded vessel.
3) stranding where other ships can assist. now this would be common, but not guaranteed. if the ship in question will always be only in civilzed areas with on-call rescue ships only a few hours away, then yes, it makes sense not to have lifeboats - but to make such an assumption is unwarranted.
flykiller,
I'm interested in the types of scenarios you envision, since you debunked Andrew's opinion without supporting details. Not knowing the details of how things work IYTU, I must admit that there may be a difference in fundamental TU scenarios that may lead to the belief that someone else's opinion is incorrect. Please give me some insight into your game, so that I can form a more valid opinion relevant to my game. We've looked at Andrew's list, but I'm curious as to yours.
Thanks in advance,
Flynn
I'm interested in the types of scenarios you envision, since you debunked Andrew's opinion without supporting details. Not knowing the details of how things work IYTU, I must admit that there may be a difference in fundamental TU scenarios that may lead to the belief that someone else's opinion is incorrect. Please give me some insight into your game, so that I can form a more valid opinion relevant to my game. We've looked at Andrew's list, but I'm curious as to yours.
Thanks in advance,
Flynn
Andrew,
Any gig or launch can be replaced with lifeboat(s). That makes it pretty standard.
Note that T20 has it at 20dt and others (MT) were 10dt from memory.
On another note I don't believe disasters 1 would be all that common. Perhaps it would be a 4 instead.
1. Ship damaged, lost steerage, lost/loosing life support in a system.
But I think we're better off rating the best options instead of arguements. For Example;
1. lifeboat
2. drop capsules
3. rescue ball
4. re-entry kits (requires some skillsets)
Lifeboats can provide a survival environment with
access to raw materials (water, etc).
Savage
Any gig or launch can be replaced with lifeboat(s). That makes it pretty standard.
Note that T20 has it at 20dt and others (MT) were 10dt from memory.
On another note I don't believe disasters 1 would be all that common. Perhaps it would be a 4 instead.
1. Ship damaged, lost steerage, lost/loosing life support in a system.
But I think we're better off rating the best options instead of arguements. For Example;
1. lifeboat
2. drop capsules
3. rescue ball
4. re-entry kits (requires some skillsets)
Lifeboats can provide a survival environment with
access to raw materials (water, etc).
Savage
Personally, given the fact that ship space is at a premium, I prefer a multi-purpose smallcraft or vehicle over a dedicated lifeboat, because it proves more useful over the long haul. Whenever I consider the introduction of smallcraft or vehicles to a vessel design, I try to make sure there's enough room to carry the crew away from the ship in the event of an emergency. I'd rather not waste the space on a vehicle that just sits there until an accident occurs, is all. It cuts into my profit...
But that's my approach to the whole situation. YMMV, of course.
Enjoy,
Flynn
But that's my approach to the whole situation. YMMV, of course.
Enjoy,
Flynn
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
I used MT/FFS to make a 1/2 ton lifepod that might be carried by warships for last-ditch evac of the crew in a combat situation, but I can't see merchant ships carrying them in the TRAVELLER economic environment.
Multi-purpose small craft are best, and all my serious designs above 300 dtons include enough such small craft to get out the crew and passengers.
I'm not sure about carrying a jump-capable messenger vessel; if you keep your maintenance up, always use refined fuel, and never jump inside the 100D limit you'll =never= misjump (in CT).
Multi-purpose small craft are best, and all my serious designs above 300 dtons include enough such small craft to get out the crew and passengers.
I'm not sure about carrying a jump-capable messenger vessel; if you keep your maintenance up, always use refined fuel, and never jump inside the 100D limit you'll =never= misjump (in CT).
snrdg082102
SOC-14 1K
Evening Jasper and the other board members,
My opinion of why escape pods/life boats are not included in the descriptions or desk plans for Traveller Spacecraft and Starships is that these devices or sub craft are minor details left out to fit other cool items. In the real world all water craft are required to have some sort of escape device. The escape device is as simple as a lifejacket to specially designed lifeboats carried on cruise ships.
I for one have on most of my designs, a couple I ran out of space for them, lifeboats are included. In addition to the carried small craft. Yes, carried small craft can double as lifeboats, however in the the small craft can't get out of the space dock or vehicle bay then you have lost the use of that craft. Lifeboats or escape pods are usually redundant systems that has a higher chance of being able to separate from the main ship by design.
My opinion of why escape pods/life boats are not included in the descriptions or desk plans for Traveller Spacecraft and Starships is that these devices or sub craft are minor details left out to fit other cool items. In the real world all water craft are required to have some sort of escape device. The escape device is as simple as a lifejacket to specially designed lifeboats carried on cruise ships.
I for one have on most of my designs, a couple I ran out of space for them, lifeboats are included. In addition to the carried small craft. Yes, carried small craft can double as lifeboats, however in the the small craft can't get out of the space dock or vehicle bay then you have lost the use of that craft. Lifeboats or escape pods are usually redundant systems that has a higher chance of being able to separate from the main ship by design.
Canonical OTU designs seldom carry evacuation craft.
Most causes of ship damage IN THE CANON OTU result in odd situations, and usually, a lifeboat is less useful than multi-role subcraft.
I'll delineate my views in some detail...
Things that go wrong with ships:
1) Reactor leak: evacuation is likely to keep crew alive. Causes: Hostile fire or poor maintenance. in eithr case, likely to occur while the shhip has a vector. usually, occurrs whee one can be aided by others, but often those others are hostile, and will shoot the subcraft anyway!
2) Maneuver Failure: if you aren't on course, you won't get on course, unless you can field repair. If nobody can rescue you, you eventually hit a body or run out of LS. Sub craft can salvage the whole thing. Lifepods probably are less of an option.
3) Jump Drive: Misjumps can leave you weeks or months of accelleration in the outsystem, and/or put you light-years away from ANYTHING of note... Other jump failures usually leave you where you are. Retturn to planet, get blown up by hostiles, or sit and sulk. Either you're close enough for others to rescue you, or you're alone in the deep inky black. Lifeboatss no help. (They provide a little more LS duration...
4) Reactor Failure: combine LS failure, Jump failure, and Maneuver failure. Likely caused by hostiles. Likely as not, you're escape craft of any kind are STILL targets.
5) Hull breach: Rescue balls and vacc suits are good enough for anything close enough t set down for repairs, and anybody in those is afe long enough for locals to rescue anyway. Otherwise, you're far enough ouut that you're dead anyway... if you have life pods or subcraft, odds are good you mihgt be able to make it back. However, Hull breaches are usually caused by COMBAT. Which see above....
6) sensor failure: not worthy of evacuation. If you're all alone, the best thing is to salvage the one off the subcraft, not evacuate.
7) mutiny: if you evcuate, you've as much as signed it over to tthe mutineers, and evacuation is likely to result in mutineers shooting you apart so as to leave only their side of the story.
also, the classic "escape Pod" will invariably launch in a direction other than "optimal reentry". Reentry is HAZARDOUS. In a low powered vessel, it is potentially terminal. See also NASA, SS Atlantis. Real maneuver drives make it a multi-purpose craft, not a life-pod.
Real world naval craft have lifeboatss because the environment, while hostile, is benign enough to survive for days, and the lifeboats can get you far enough to survive major traumas. combat evaacuations work because both the cover of the waves and the innaccuracy of naval fire has prevented taking out the life boats DURING combat... and modern naval battles haven't had much success getting them launched anyway. That it's a iolation of the Geneva Convention to fire on lifeboats which are no longer firing is also helpful.
Space craft lifeboats are much harder to justify. They drain cargo space (at rather startling rates, BTW), and also add maintenance time. Additionally, they are either useful for other duties, or are unlikelyy to actually put you down safely anywhere. Likewise, combat useage, they do not have the cover of waves... and so become taargets right off. any of the worlds where one would be able to get aa lifepod down are, well, unlikely to let it survive thhe landing... and even if it does, there is no benefit to a lifepod that a subcraft can't help.
Likewise, the OTU lacks a LOT of safety regs compared to modern USA... modern rules require lifeboats for all PASSENGERS on LARGE CRAFT. Small craft require life preservers. Help is, barring weather, avaailable within 240 hours ANYWHERE on the planet.
In the OTU, doctors are carried, but obviously, due to the pevalence of the low lottery, they aren't held liable for the deaths of low passengers... otherwise, low passage wouldn't exist. Vacc suits and rescue balls can allow everyone to survive decompression. thaat is the single WORST case scenario, besides maneuver failure during jump on a "Decell to destination" jump exit...
If, for example, you wind up out in the oort cloud... you are going to be targeted by a microjump IF YOU HAVE LS... otherwise, you're picked up as corpses.
Fuel failures likewise either leave you where you're at, or you get to the other end without sufficient for maneuver. Under TNE, fuel failures equate to both jump and maneuver failures. Under CT/MT, add PP failures, too...
anything big enough to carry jump capable subcraft is big enough that it seldom travels alone.
ALso, the longer it takes you to get somewhere, the longer it takes rescuers to get to you for spacecraft... so if you're a day out, it's a at least 4 hours for a ship much faster than you. If, however, you're 4 days out at 4G, you are hosed.
Note also, under TNE< due to fuel restrictions, many ships take days to reach the 100diam limit.
Most causes of ship damage IN THE CANON OTU result in odd situations, and usually, a lifeboat is less useful than multi-role subcraft.
I'll delineate my views in some detail...
Things that go wrong with ships:
1) Reactor leak: evacuation is likely to keep crew alive. Causes: Hostile fire or poor maintenance. in eithr case, likely to occur while the shhip has a vector. usually, occurrs whee one can be aided by others, but often those others are hostile, and will shoot the subcraft anyway!
2) Maneuver Failure: if you aren't on course, you won't get on course, unless you can field repair. If nobody can rescue you, you eventually hit a body or run out of LS. Sub craft can salvage the whole thing. Lifepods probably are less of an option.
3) Jump Drive: Misjumps can leave you weeks or months of accelleration in the outsystem, and/or put you light-years away from ANYTHING of note... Other jump failures usually leave you where you are. Retturn to planet, get blown up by hostiles, or sit and sulk. Either you're close enough for others to rescue you, or you're alone in the deep inky black. Lifeboatss no help. (They provide a little more LS duration...
4) Reactor Failure: combine LS failure, Jump failure, and Maneuver failure. Likely caused by hostiles. Likely as not, you're escape craft of any kind are STILL targets.
5) Hull breach: Rescue balls and vacc suits are good enough for anything close enough t set down for repairs, and anybody in those is afe long enough for locals to rescue anyway. Otherwise, you're far enough ouut that you're dead anyway... if you have life pods or subcraft, odds are good you mihgt be able to make it back. However, Hull breaches are usually caused by COMBAT. Which see above....
6) sensor failure: not worthy of evacuation. If you're all alone, the best thing is to salvage the one off the subcraft, not evacuate.
7) mutiny: if you evcuate, you've as much as signed it over to tthe mutineers, and evacuation is likely to result in mutineers shooting you apart so as to leave only their side of the story.
also, the classic "escape Pod" will invariably launch in a direction other than "optimal reentry". Reentry is HAZARDOUS. In a low powered vessel, it is potentially terminal. See also NASA, SS Atlantis. Real maneuver drives make it a multi-purpose craft, not a life-pod.
Real world naval craft have lifeboatss because the environment, while hostile, is benign enough to survive for days, and the lifeboats can get you far enough to survive major traumas. combat evaacuations work because both the cover of the waves and the innaccuracy of naval fire has prevented taking out the life boats DURING combat... and modern naval battles haven't had much success getting them launched anyway. That it's a iolation of the Geneva Convention to fire on lifeboats which are no longer firing is also helpful.
Space craft lifeboats are much harder to justify. They drain cargo space (at rather startling rates, BTW), and also add maintenance time. Additionally, they are either useful for other duties, or are unlikelyy to actually put you down safely anywhere. Likewise, combat useage, they do not have the cover of waves... and so become taargets right off. any of the worlds where one would be able to get aa lifepod down are, well, unlikely to let it survive thhe landing... and even if it does, there is no benefit to a lifepod that a subcraft can't help.
Likewise, the OTU lacks a LOT of safety regs compared to modern USA... modern rules require lifeboats for all PASSENGERS on LARGE CRAFT. Small craft require life preservers. Help is, barring weather, avaailable within 240 hours ANYWHERE on the planet.
In the OTU, doctors are carried, but obviously, due to the pevalence of the low lottery, they aren't held liable for the deaths of low passengers... otherwise, low passage wouldn't exist. Vacc suits and rescue balls can allow everyone to survive decompression. thaat is the single WORST case scenario, besides maneuver failure during jump on a "Decell to destination" jump exit...
If, for example, you wind up out in the oort cloud... you are going to be targeted by a microjump IF YOU HAVE LS... otherwise, you're picked up as corpses.
Fuel failures likewise either leave you where you're at, or you get to the other end without sufficient for maneuver. Under TNE, fuel failures equate to both jump and maneuver failures. Under CT/MT, add PP failures, too...
anything big enough to carry jump capable subcraft is big enough that it seldom travels alone.
ALso, the longer it takes you to get somewhere, the longer it takes rescuers to get to you for spacecraft... so if you're a day out, it's a at least 4 hours for a ship much faster than you. If, however, you're 4 days out at 4G, you are hosed.
Note also, under TNE< due to fuel restrictions, many ships take days to reach the 100diam limit.
entirely reasonable.
I have no list. there is no list. presenting a list assumes that one knows exactly what accidents are going to happen, when and where they will happen, how they will affect the ship, and what options and resources will and will not be available, and that therefore one can plan accidents accordingly. while TU does have an effect such assumptions are not reasonable in any TU I can think of, therefore ships ought to be prepared for any eventuality. recall the titanic.
while there is no list one may cite examples. for instance a ship's engineering section may be crippled by a lack of maintenance, a meteor hit, a collision, a misjump, etc, leaving the ship unpowered and in an untenable situation. one recalls the plights of several real-life cruise liners and other vessels the last few years. other similar scenarios are limited only by the imagination of the referees and players, and I don't think many of them are TU dependent.
of course this is all from a real-world perspective and I'm an ex-sailor nuke engineer, so I get into this sort of thing. given the scifi-fantasy subject matter this may not be valid. if one wishes to run a campaign where lifeboat situations never arise then one can simply up and do so and leave it at that, but if one gets into justifications ("dedicated lifeboats are a waste of space") then things get a bit more involved.
some points in my TU, if anyone cares: CT (only version I know). ships are heavily compartmentalized and have redundant life support and damage control systems to minimize damage. fusion plants and other drives cannot explode. not every travelled system has space-going craft of its own. many popular areas are primitive. not all primary ports are outside of their star's 100d limit. many double systems have dual main worlds with much non-jump traffic between them. dedicated lifeboats are twenty tons and hold up to thirty-four individuals. and, of course, Things Go Wrong.
standard PC boats are usually too small to hold small craft of any kind.
http://members.aol.com/flykiller/pictures/erins.gif
larger PC boats can hold small craft that do double-duty.
http://members.aol.com/exog/pictures/mcgx.gif
because of contest requirements this one thousand ton passenger liner has no lifeboats. it has, however, recovery stations. I dislike it, but Andrew should appreciate it.
http://spacecraft.sfrpg.net/plans/02-MG1-01.htm
larger vessels of mine always have dedicated lifeboats.
http://members.aol.com/exog/myhomepage/pictures/lewis/lewis.gif
http://members.aol.com/flykiller/ice1/ice.html
double use is preferable, if you can get it. it depends on how many people a boat holds. a twenty-ton gig bus holds about sixteen people in couches. MTU dedicated twenty-ton lifeboat holds thirty-two. if one uses double-duty gigs it takes two of them (fifty-two tons) vs one dedicated lifeboat (twenty-six tons).
