Experience in Traveller

[philabbot]

I'm sure somebody must started a smimlar thread at some point (but couldn't find ot on the 'search') so apologies if I'm covering old ground...

I've recently started gm'ing a mongoose trav game with some players who are new to gaming and some who are new to Traveller, only.

These last are asking 'what about experience points?' At first I ignored them, but it is their game too, so I've come up with some ideas. My reply to them is below - and I'd really appreciate comments / other ideas if you've got em...

i've been thinking about this a lot & have been looking at what some other refs do & have collated a few ideas; they mostly revolve around improving your skills...


1) in the 'classic' version of traveller, characters could pursue a course of study to improve skills or learn new ones

- sensibly, the way this would work would be to study / practice while you're in jump space & can put in the uninterrupted time; while you're planetside, etc there are too many other things to distract your characters

- this might involve working with holovids or VR rigs or simply 'book learning' in the ship's library

- a certain number of hours stuidy / practice would be needed to increase a skill by 1 level, or to learn a new one to level-0


2) a lot of practice in a skill you already possess, or at doing something you do not yet have a skill in, might also raise your level by 1, or to level-0 if it's a new skill

- of course, lack of practice in a skill might indicate 'getting rusty' at doing something and forgetting key elements to that skill - and so beginning to lose it...


3) exceptional dice rolls might suggest developing prowess in that skill (eg, ari's last-gasp electric stun shot at the sabre-tooth pouncer, or khel's barroom haymaker at udeh ivo - which would have floored the bugger if khel'd been less woozy)

- of course, a succession of crap throws might indicate the opposite, and a character end up deteriorating in a skill...


4) an alternative to improving skill levels might be when you make exceptionally good throws or get lots of practice at doing something, me awarding you extra dice - 'prowess' dice, similar to drama dice but which can only be used for that particular skill


NB: during character generation your characters could learn the following:


- your character begins their career at age 18 with 3+EDU DM number of skills at level-0... that's a maximum of 5 level-0 skills learnt in 18 years


- during your first term in a career, you pick up 6 level-0 skills during 'basic training', plus 1 skill at level-1 which you roll for, plus a possible extra level-1 skill for promotion, plus a possible extra level-1 skill for an event = a maximum 3 level-1 skills & 6 level-0 skills in 4 years ('basic training' is the equivalent of an intensive course of study lasting one year)


- during each subsequent term, you can pick up only 1 skill at level-1 which you roll for, plus a possible extra level-1 skill for promotion, plus a possible extra level-1 skill for an event = a maximum of 3 level-1 skills in 4 years


- finally, in 'classic' traveller, characters could not learn a total of skills greater than their INT + EDU; classic traveller did not have specified level-0 skills however, which complicates things...

 

[BytePro]

For what its worth, MgT has an official experience system... see pg 59 under Learning New Skills.

 

[philabbot]

oh yeh - so it does!

thanks; i totally missed that... kind of like CT then, isn't it?

 

[BytePro]

No problem - its easy to miss!

BTW: A number of discussions on the Mongoose forums address skill advancement and several folks have presented their house rules.

 

[ShapeShifter]

The concept of PC development/improvement IMHO is in stark contrast with the explicitly stated gritty, pessimistic rules of the LBBs 1-3 where the PC is at his peak (if lucky) or (not uncommonly) on the decline in his career/life by the time he starts adventuring. PCs have to endure diminutions to their attribute stats once they get into 'advanced age', so giving players a chance to improve their characters is more in the spirit of D&D (which is arguably a game of gradual, incremental apotheosis, e.g. BECMI).

A referee could institute a system of 'character points' as used in the WEG Star Wars game for PC improvement. This would take the gritty edge off the RAW, if the group is seeking a pulpier, more survivable type of campaign.

My Cr0.02.

 

[Icosahedron]

This topic has been done several times. There are three fundamental problems with in-game experience:
1. It should equate to experience in Chargen - ie perhaps one skill point per year.
2. If it equates to chargen, players will be frustrated, because the gameplay may not last a year, so they may get no benefit.
3. Most forms of experience require record-keeping that's usually a PITA for the Referee.

I'm currently trying out a system whereby if you roll boxcars on a task, you get to roll 1D6. If your 1D6 exceeds your current skill, you get to increase one level. No record keeping, the players are engaged in blowing on the dice to get boxcars, and I haven't had to hand out a skill level yet. Time will tell.

 

[CosmicGamer]

1. It should equate to experience in Chargen - ie perhaps one skill point per year.

Why?

Chargen itself is inconsistent due to it's random nature.

Within chargen you have connections and skill packages which hand out skills without any per year consideration. Muster out and you can suddenly gain characteristics like Int and Soc. Those skills would have come in handy during your career but no, somehow it is instantly bestowed on the character upon mustering out. Basic training for the first career is 6 level 0 skills. Why can't you learn 6 new level 0 skills every term?

My point is that chargen is just a game mechanic and if someone wishes to have an experience system mechanic I'm not sure how you could equate to one term getting a single level 1 skill and another term getting 6 level 0 skills (basic training), gaining 2 levels in one skill (normal term skill and advancement skill), and another 2 level 1 skills (event and rank skill).

Perhaps utilizing the in game skill increase rules or a personal version in combination with a non skill increase mechanic like this:

4) an alternative to improving skill levels might be when you make exceptionally good throws or get lots of practice at doing something, me awarding you extra dice - 'prowess' dice, similar to drama dice but which can only be used for that particular skill

 

[McPerth]

oh yeh - so it does!

thanks; i totally missed that... kind of like CT then, isn't it?

I don't have access, not have read GT, and never taken much interest in TNE, so I wont talk about them, but both MT and T4 had systems for character improvement through experience (something CT or MGT don't have, AFAIK, they only have formal training).

As for myself, the one I liked more was MT, a litle houseruled.

1. It should equate to experience in Chargen - ie perhaps one skill point per year.

Well, if you use advanced Chargen in CT, you may learn more than one skill in a year, if you're lucky in a special assignment (IIRC the most is 8 in comando school, and rolling 8 times in a row 5-6 on one die). Of course, those represent intensive training, not time adventuring.

Anyway remember in CT (with books 4-7 included), instruction allows you to teach (and so, to learn) a skill in 6 weeks, but that's again formal training, no experience.

 

[Icosahedron]

Why?

Chargen itself is inconsistent due to it's random nature.

Ok, "It should broadly equate to experience in Chargen." ie, you don't get three new skills every Jump. You should expect to gain a skill at most once in a dozen two-week adventures, and you might get nothing for a year or more.

Within chargen you have connections and skill packages which hand out skills without any per year consideration. Muster out and you can suddenly gain characteristics like Int and Soc. Those skills would have come in handy during your career but no, somehow it is instantly bestowed on the character upon mustering out. Basic training for the first career is 6 level 0 skills. Why can't you learn 6 new level 0 skills every term?

Yes, chargen is random, but you can still work on averages. Whatever chargen system you're working to, it will have an average number of skills per year for a typical character. That's the figure I'd use.
When playing MgT, I've assumed that your 'basic training' wasn't merely the result of a crash course, but represented everything you'd picked up in your first two decades of life - your schooling, your dad's fencing lessons, your childhood on the streets, your target practice on Wamp-rats, your stowing away on a tramp trader at the age of 14, or whatever.
Likewise, I've always assumed that those mustering benefits were the result of post-service reflection or the attitude of the public to ex-servicemen. As you say, It's a game mechanic.

My point is that chargen is just a game mechanic and if someone wishes to have an experience system mechanic I'm not sure how you could equate to one term getting a single level 1 skill and another term getting 6 level 0 skills (basic training), gaining 2 levels in one skill (normal term skill and advancement skill), and another 2 level 1 skills (event and rank skill).

There will still be an average. If you roll 100 characters, what's their typical number of skills per turn? If you create an experience system, it should match this (and maybe have a similar random element) - otherwise you get a situation whereby up to the age of say 30, your character has learned 1 skill per year, under intensive military training, but then suddenly learns ten skills a year for the rest of his life while he's bumming around on a tramp trader... Makes no sense to me.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Icosahedron, I agree with all you said, except the bit about basic training incorporating your adolescence. Getting level-0 skills is nothing more than familiarization - it's easy to get 6 level-0's in Basic. After all, you're locked away from the world and learning these skills 16 hours a day, while your body and brain is turned to mush and reconstructed from the ground up. (And, if the drill instructor is adequately sadistic and competent, you're dreaming this stuff, too!)

McPerth, you say "instruction allows you to teach (and so, to learn)". Instruction doesn't allow you to learn anything, it allows you to teach. And, it only allows you to teach less than you really know, iirc. But, someone else having instruction allows you to learn.

 

[Dragoner]

Book 2, pg 42 gives experience rules for CT on improvement of skills and stats, I have been using those rules for about 30 years now.

 

[captainjack]

I'm currently trying out a system whereby if you roll boxcars on a task, you get to roll 1D6. If your 1D6 exceeds your current skill, you get to increase one level. No record keeping, the players are engaged in blowing on the dice to get boxcars, and I haven't had to hand out a skill level yet. Time will tell.

Yes. This. I like.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Book 2, pg 42 gives experience rules for CT on improvement of skills and stats, I have been using those rules for about 30 years now.

The OP is about MGT. My old books are stored in dads attic. Can you give a summary? Would you say the CT experience rules are usable with MGT as is? Need some tweaks?

Reference was made to similar discussions elsewhere and I gave a list of several optional methods in one of them.

I'm currently trying out a system whereby if you roll boxcars...

Yes. This. I like.

One is like Icosahedron's but also gives a chance to learn from your mistakes. Helps offset whatever evil snakeyes scenario the GM dreams up. Even though I thought this worked well, YMMV because some games are more roleplay and some are more roll which can greatly affect how often skill increases occur in your game.

Also, there are a lot more rolls over a short time during combat then for other skills which can make advancement lopsided.

 

[Dragoner]

The OP is about MGT. My old books are stored in dads attic. Can you give a summary? Would you say the CT experience rules are usable with MGT as is? Need some tweaks?

Yes, I was just stating it to say that it has always been in CT.

SELF-IMPROVEMENT
Limited personal development and experience is possible in the sense of increasing
abilities and skills. Such potential for increases is possible in four specific
areas, only one of which may be attempted at one time: education, weapon expertise,
other skills, and physical fitness. 
In each field, the character selects a four-year program of self-improvement,
dedicating his or her endeavors in something like obsession, with the general goal
of self-improvement. Because individuals do not always have the will to continue
with such a program, there is the chance that the program will be planned, but
never actually carried out. After the general field has been chosen, the character
must make a dedication die roll. Throw 8+; no DMs apply except when throwing to
enter a physical fitness program, in which case allow a DM of +2 if intelligence is
8-, +4 if intelligence 5-. Failure to achieve this throw indicates that the self improvement
program is not carried out, and a new one may not be attempted
for at least one year. Success in the throw indicates that the program is undertaken.

There is some more, iirc, Nick Pendrell's Mustered Out on Mertractor campaign on Obsidian Portal is mongoose and he has some education rolls going on.

 

[VonPickles]

I have always used this system
If you roll snake eyes, or boxcars put a tick or mark next to skill
Once you have 10 ticks increase skill, this reflects learning from failure as well as success

 

[Icosahedron]

Icosahedron, I agree with all you said, except the bit about basic training incorporating your adolescence. Getting level-0 skills is nothing more than familiarization - it's easy to get 6 level-0's in Basic. After all, you're locked away from the world and learning these skills 16 hours a day, while your body and brain is turned to mush and reconstructed from the ground up. (And, if the drill instructor is adequately sadistic and competent, you're dreaming this stuff, too!)

I agree, Basic is intensive training and could certainly result in the Service Skills, and this is probably the case for the Army and Navy careers - your Zero-G or Battledress skills are straight from boot camp, but if you're a Citizen, Drifter, Rogue, Noble, Entertainer, etc, I figure you didn't fall out of the clone vat yesterday - you've been streetwise, dancing, or learning to administer your estates from an early age. I'm just advocating that the Basic Training is not exclusively stuff from boot camp.

YMMV because some games are more roleplay and some are more roll which can greatly affect how often skill increases occur in your game.
Also, there are a lot more rolls over a short time during combat then for other skills which can make advancement lopsided.

True. I'll need to watch for that.

 

[philabbot]

von pickles:

learning from failure as well as success

yes, this was the 1st thing one of my PCs said to me when i told him i was thinking of awarding exceptionally good rolls.

but then i thought, maybe snakeyes indicates that the character is getting rusty at that skill - and needs to brush-up on it to avoid losing a skill point!

i haven't driven for 20 years now, and while i may have had drive (wheeled)-1 that long ago, i doubt you'd feel safe in a car with me at the wheel anymore...

 

[Shonner]

My point is that chargen is just a game mechanic

That's my thought also. CharGen just creates a random character instantly (if you have it running on a computer, that is). CharGen does not simulate any character's past gaming sessions over time.

 

[Shonner]

I have always used this system
If you roll snake eyes, or boxcars put a tick or mark next to skill
Once you have 10 ticks increase skill, this reflects learning from failure as well as success

I'd make snake eyes remove a tick. -10 ticks will decrease your skill.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Book 2, pg 42 gives experience rules for CT on improvement of skills and stats, I have been using those rules for about 30 years now.

Yeah, they're there.

I never liked the concept of experience points in Traveller. It was a design concept for D&D and similar games to reflect your improvement with your weapon over various bad guys and what not, but it seen became the "real game reward" which was never meant to be the case. The game and achieving the goal was the reward, not the exp pts. you earned.

But soon the game became all about killing stuff for experience. Plot, story and general experience suddenly didn't mean a whole lot.

Traveller took a pragmatic approach to the concept, so as not to make it an issue. I like it that way.