Experimental intelligence gathering ship

[vermeylenhans]

"What Does the Imperial Navy Need?" (Baron Saarthuran)

"A spec ops boat. Stealthy, fast, able to get anywhere and deliver a small team (5 to 12 troopers) to any point on any planet in range without being seen. LONG legs (Jump 6?). Something for those missions where if any of your team or caught or killed, the Imperium will disavow any knowledge of your existence.
Possibly with this caveat. As low a tech as possible. That way if the ship is ever captured, nothing aboard points back to the Emperor. Maybe even a confusion of technologies, (Varg, Zhodian, Aslan, etc.)" (Drakon)

"3) Intel/EW platforms. Specialised sensor ships.
4) Stealthy, special ops ships used for the insertion of SpecFor, Intel teams." (Thierry Maitrejean)

The idea for this ship came from a Star Wars design: the Loronar SkyBlind Recon Ship (everything about her including awesome shematics and deckplans, altough the colors for the later were chosen by a vargr, on Star Wars: Deckplans by FVBonura@aol.com). From the first look she didn't seem Star-warsish to me. First a spherical design put her appart from the other, more "aerodynamic" designs of the trilogy. Second, in a universe were star-trekish cloacking devices exist (think about the Emperor's personnal shuttle or about Admiral Thrawn blocade of Coruscant) why would someone bother with building a real-physics-inside stealth ship (the spherical design being part of the stealth technology, along with some sort of coating, all of this slightly low-tech for the Star Wars setting).

The logical conclusion was making a Traveller ship of her. But what kind of ship? I decided to use her as an intelligence gathering ship, her two mission being ELINT and deploiment of small intel teams (much like the new Virginia US SSN).

Now, what would be such a ship caracteristics?

110%!

 

[vermeylenhans]

There is to way for getting where you may not: not being recognised or not being detected.

In the former case all you need is some old second hand trader loaded with electronics (good old russian trailer). This works perfectly well, ensure maximal deniability and is very cost effective, but only as long as some civilian traffic is allowed in the aera where you operate.

When no civilian traffic is allowed, you've to slip in undetected. This is where this new design comes into play.

110%!

 

[vermeylenhans]

To acheive her goal, the ship will use high tech stealth system (sorry for Drakon low tech idea but hight tech stealth ship with low tech equipment is a contradiction in term, and so much for deniability: the ship looks like what she is, but if she's seen her mission already failed). No alien parts neither: this would result in a engineering nightmare (besides this is not the Navy way of doing things, maybe the IISS would try something like that) and as I already said this is not the proper way to ensure deniability.

110%!

 

[vermeylenhans]

Now, here come the questions:

1. What jump number should the ship have? Obviously, as much as possible. But wouldn't it make sens of having her capable of a second jump without refueling? Starport refuelling is not an option is such a mission and wilderness refueling is, in my eyes, a supplementary occasion of being detected. Is a jump-6 engine capable of doing a jump-3 using only half the fuel? Or do I need a jump-3 to do this? If so? What do you think? A single jump-6 or a couple of jump-3 (4?)?

2. Weaponery? As detection already means failure, combat is not really an option, so I plan equiping it with a single torpedo launcher used primarly as probe launcher. What do you think?

3. As an experimental ship designed during or just before the fifth frontier war I plan making her TL12 (GURPS, this means TL15 I think) with some TL13 (TL16 thus) parts. Namely the sensors suit and stealth system. Any suggestion?

4. Are there any other idea about the equipment and performances she should have?

110%!

 

[shield]

A few answers to your questions.

Jump range. Try the Nemisis cruiser it has J5 drive, with J5 fuel and a fuel bladder for J1 extra. It allows J3 standoff raids / covert surveys.

Weapons. Yes a missile launcher for drones, J torps etc. Put in the normal weapons load for the ship you are trying to imitate. if it is a sleath ship add a turret its not much space and allows you to fend off a scout / escort long enought to jump. Remember a fleet will not send a battleship to chase every vague sensor contact, they send escorts and scout (just in case it is an enemy fleet.

What else to add. Black globe would be nice, sensor drones, jump torps, large common rooms, extra supplies and extra PP fuel, the ship may be hanging at the edge of a system for months gathering electronic intelligence.

Cheers
Richard

Cheers
Richard

 

[maitrejeanth]

J-torps ?
They don't exist IMTU, first because I still have to see a way to desong them, be it in CT, MT, TNE GT or T20 without major rules tweaking, and second because having JTs would also logically allow jump capable ships under the 100 ton limit. X-wings, anyone ?

 

[Drakon]

1) Soviet Trallers were fishing vessels, and used until the US expanded their territorial waters out to 200 miles. After that, the Soviet trallers were recalled and replaced by "Oceanigraphic Research Vessels". It is their fault that the most interesting, in a scientific sense, waters just happen to be outside San Diego, Bangor, Pearl and Norfolk?

2) The idea of stealth is to not get caught at all. But if caught, a confusing array of technologies, and origins might prove useful. If the ship is captured without the crew, or personel, then the mix of technologies would put the blame on several parties rather than just the one.

[If captured with crew aboard, cover would be hired out as mercs to third parties they never met, via intermediaries]

3) As to Low tech being a contradiction, I disagree. The lower the tech, the more dispersed it would be among the various interstellar parties, which would further make it harder to pin point the originator of the vessel. Yes it would be an engineering nightmare. But while it would be difficult for the good guys to "wreakbash" such a craft, it would give the bad guys even more nightmares trying to figure out who sent it.

It is exactly because it is a contradiction, that I would include it. Of course it will obviously show great pains were undertaken to "scrub" the technology so as to make the ship's origins indeterminant. And to give the sending power plausable deniability.

I have been thinking primarily of the Spec Ops Insertion Vehicle, rather than the EW ships. I can see various classes of EW or sensor ships being deployed for various tasks. One class for covert recon, one class for picket duty, screening the fleet. A third class for command and control of large fleet operations.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Hans Vermeylen:
Now, here come the questions:

1. What jump number should the ship have? Obviously, as much as possible. But wouldn't it make sens of having her capable of a second jump without refueling? Starport refuelling is not an option is such a mission and wilderness refueling is, in my eyes, a supplementary occasion of being detected. Is a jump-6 engine capable of doing a jump-3 using only half the fuel? Or do I need a jump-3 to do this? If so? What do you think? A single jump-6 or a couple of jump-3 (4?)?

As high as possible, perferably Jump 6, and YES! enough fuel for a second jump would be minimum requirment. Good point about wilderness refueling.

As for multiple jumps, again we get to the range question. My original idea was to be able to get in and out very quickly, without being detected. If your target is only 3 parsecs away, then all the better.

My understanding of the rules is that a Jump 6 engine will use all the fuel required for a Jump 6 even if it is only a Jump 3. I don't like it, and IMTU I would change this. YMMV.

2. Weaponery? As detection already means failure, combat is not really an option, so I plan equiping it with a single torpedo launcher used primarly as probe launcher. What do you think?

I would have a laser turrent in case of a hot LZ extraction. The probe launcher is a great idea, and a viable means of resupply your spec ops troops. But you got to keep is small, and stealthy.

3. As an experimental ship designed during or just before the fifth frontier war I plan making her TL12 (GURPS, this means TL15 I think) with some TL13 (TL16 thus) parts. Namely the sensors suit and stealth system. Any suggestion?

Your sensors or high tech stuff you can run away without, I would rig with thermite, just in case.

4. Are there any other idea about the equipment and performances she should have?

Need to define the team, the payload, being transported first, before designing the transport craft (I am assuming we are talking Spec Ops Insertion Vessel here,) Assuming 5 to 12 man team, what kind of equipment would they carry? Jobs would include sabotage and intelligence gathering, so some munitions, comm gear, data storage, (a laptop with cam, could also have built in radio, or ejectable storage until it can be retrieved later) Normal array of firearms and soldiering gear.

Maybe, 1 or 2 Airrafts, but I am leaning to the minimal, small size for payload. Let the team improvise munitions for the most part. And have them in low berths until you hit the LZ, which will minimize life support and hotel loads.

As for the EW ship you mentioned earlier, Again that will vary according to mission. You made a great point earlier in that if you can use a standard merchant, all the better for clandestine work. But that is not the only use for an intel ship. You might need one as a sensor post on the outermost of your fleet, to avoid ambushes. And the ability to communicate will be essential.

 

[vermeylenhans]

I still disagree.

First consider the difficulties we already have matching different technologies here on earth: think of the MiG-29 the german air force get when they reunified with their eastern colleagues. Not really trusting the russian engines they decided to replace them with US (Pratt & Whitney if my memories are good)ones. They still have problems with those. Now imagine, mixing a hiver computer with a droyne jump engine a imperial hull and so on... It may seem easy to put some stats on paper, but those stat should represent something real. And, in my humble opinion, what you propose is not really possible.

Second, when you're the target of an intelligence mission, it's often fairly easy to determine who is behind it. The choice of target already tells much. So a good intelligence mission is one the target keeps ignoring. The goal of deniability is not to hide who's behind the affair, but only to hide it officialy.

Third, the low-tech/high-tech think is, in my eyes, a problem. Stealth technology is designed against a specific type of sensors. When new sensors appear (new TL), you've to designed new stealth technics, the older ones simply become useless. So I'll have to use top notch equipment on my ship.

Fourth, I don't think the navy will trust mercenaries hired by middle-man they never met with their latest prototype.

Fifth. "As high as possible, perferably Jump 6, and YES! enough fuel for a second jump would be minimum requirment." That's not even 110% but 120% of the volume of the ship used by jumpfuel... Still no contradiction?


So I'll design the ship along the following lines:

- Imperial only technologie. No weird IISSish mix of material.

- Designed for small intel team stealth deployment (their are other ship more suitable in hot insertion/extraction) AND ELINT gathering (not picket ship, not C³ ship, not flank scouting of a fleet).

- Jump-torps do no exist: they're non-canon, and using them would need to redefine entierly the whole Traveller universe.

- Turret remains an option, if their is enough place, but I think the space used by such a turret would be better used by more electronics, more life support... It's a matter of priorities. We'll see.

- The designed I'm basing myself on is equiped with some kind of boat (a landing sphere), I'll keep the idea I think: it makes sense to use a 10 dT stealth boat to deploy a covert team rather than landing with a ship of several hundreds dT.

110%!

 

[vermeylenhans]

Is their a canonic answer to the question "Can a jump-6 ship make two 3-parsecs-jumps using half it's fuel for each?"

If the answer is no? What do you think is better? A single jump-6? With the added risk of wilderness refueling? Two jump-3? Maybe two jump-4? But then, all the rest will be very cramped...

What tonnage should have that ship? The Star Wars design is about 300 dT? If you use 60% of it to store jumpfuel you still have 120 dT. It seems enough to me to cramp a few bunks, a small morgue and armory, lots of electonics, a torpedo laucher and a few stateroom, along the needed engines, bridge en so on. The question isn't that too much for a stealth ship? I tried to make it 200 dT or even 100 dT but even the former is too small to put all that I want inside it. Should I choose between the two missions and only keep one of them? Or do I go on with the 300 dT design?

 

[The Oz]

I have always understood from High Guard, and from some published adventures, that ships can jump less than their full drive potential and not use all their jump fuel. It was only in the very first sets of LBBs that you used up all your jump fuel, no matter the jump number.

So I would say that a Jump-6 ship with six parsecs worth of internal fuel could jump three parsecs twice without refueling.

As for size, you'll probably find that 300 dtons is barely big enough, and you might well find it necessary to go larger. If you're planning this ship for long-duration deployments then giving each crewman his own stateroom is a very good idea, and if you also intend to include a stealth boat and a recon team you'll need space for them, too.

I'm not sure how T20 works in ship design but if you want good sensors you should need a big computer, and in High Guard that means a bigger powerplant to provide the energy points to run it.

As a quick experiment using HGS, I got a Model 9 computer plus everything else (Jump-6, six parsecs fuel, a 10 ton boat, individual staterooms for everyone including an intrusion team of 3 [they crew the boat], and one turret with a missile launcher, laser and sandcaster) into a 600 dton hull and had 24 tons left over for supplies, armory and whatever, and stealth features. She costs nearly MCr500 for the prototype (remember that this cost doesn't include any stealth or special features) and has a crew of 7 plus the intrusion team of 3.

I assume that what you mean by a "torpedo launcher" is a missile launcher.

 

[belter]

Fellow Citizens:

A sugggestion regarding jump fuel - in d20 you can attach drop tanks to a ship to save internal fuel for a later time.

You can also use detachable jump pods (pg 331 of The Traveller's Handbook) that contain a j-drive and fuel.

Another idea - to skirt the rules for providing accomodations for passengers is to put an ATV in the cargo bay and use it as a mini-motel for a week.

 

[maitrejeanth]

I'll check my books at home tonight, but I'm really not sure that starships can do shorter jumps than their rated maximums AND use up only a proportional amount of jump fuel. But again, I'm not 110% certain, so I'll check, at least as far as CT/MT are concerned.

The problem with hi-jump/low displacement ships is that jump fuel uses up 10% of total ship's displacement per jump number. For exemple, a 400 Dt jump-6 like the fleet courier depicted in Suppl 9 will have 264 Dt fuel tankage. It has a model/6 comp and "extensive data banks", 2 turrets, fuel scoops and purif plant. It has no subcraft, 2 Dt cargo and passenger space for 4. It has a crew of 2 officers and 3 ratings. It has no defensive systems whatsoever. It costs MCr 255.55.

(Who knows whether it's a Book 2 or High Guard design)

Droptanks could ne interesting. As far as having the SpecOps guys/gals live in the ATV during jump, I'm afraid this is a no-go. Can you really picture yourself spending 1 whole week in a motor-home and being 100% operational afterwards ? What about last-minute planning and continued training ? What about mission supplies, anyway ?
Might as well consider low berths, in that case, so you won't have a bunch of rioting SF types aboard by the end of the jump.

My point is that although Low Ton / High Jump desings are feasible, they are hardly practical. Nor are they hardly neede, IMHO, considering the average distance between systems in most subsectors. The naval J4 standard might be enough. J3 with double jump capability (either back and forth or to allow longer jumps) might also prove more convenient .

This goes to show that, in our TU's as well as in real life, perfect designs don't exist and compromize still reigns supreme.

A very interesting discussion, anyway.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Ships used the full fuel load whatever the distance jumped in 1st ed Bk2. It was made optional in 1st ed Bk5, and dropped completely in 2nd ed CT.

 

[vermeylenhans]

"If you're planning this ship for long-duration deployments then giving each crewman his own stateroom is a very good idea" (The Oz)

"As far as having the SpecOps guys/gals live in the ATV during jump, I'm afraid this is a no-go. Can you really picture yourself spending 1 whole week in a motor-home and being 100% operational afterwards? What about last-minute planning and continued training ? What about mission supplies, anyway?" (Thierry Maitrejean)

Aboard Belgian Navy ships, ratings sleep in bunks and officers in double occupancy staterooms, only the CO and XO enjoy single occupancy. And it doesn't seems to be a problem. So I'd probably use double occupancy staterooms for the crew, with the CO having his own, and put the intel guys (and girls and aliens) in bunks. As I understood about half of the volume listed for the stateroom is actually the stateroom, the rest being, access space and common room. I'll have to compute how much common space is avaible and figure out if there is any for some briefing room for the intel people. Otherwise I'll have to add it. As for in flight training, this will have to be kept minimal. Think of real world spec ops being depoyed aboard a sub. Anyway they won't be aboard that long. They will mostly jump in, be deployed at once and be picked up only to jump out. The very long occupancy problem is for the ELINT party.

110%!

 

[vermeylenhans]

How far do we actually need to jump by the way? What about some kind of modulatity? Tanks replacing the landing sphere? Some kind of bladder (Hydrogen bladder, waw! Don't tell the safety officer!) in the intel troups quarter when they're not used? And so on...

By the way I'll use the GURPS design system. I don't own anything Traveller before that (I'm not sure I was even born) and I don't like T20 very much.

110%

 

[belter]

I must defend my idea for using an ATV for berthing -

The spec ops guys wouldn't be confined to the ATV, they will be able to roam freely in the cargo bay, galley, & other ships spaces while sleeping in the ATV and using its facilities for a week. I think professional soldiers could handle such an arrangement with ease.

I could see problems with this if the cargo bay were jammed full of supplies and the rest of the ship were not available to allow free movement of personnel. Even in such a case I think motivated spec ops soldiers could handle it for a week with a small chance for serious consequenses.

This topic is a great discussion, I enjoy everyone's detailed input!

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by belter:
I must defend my idea for using an ATV for berthing...

<snip>

I could get behind this if the ATV is lifesupport rated for the week or you penalize the lifesupport for the whole ship. T20 for example allows stressing the life support rating but with penalties. Just a thought.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Hans Vermeylen:
I still disagree.

That is cool. These little disagreements make life interesting.

First: While it may be difficult, I don't see it as impossible. I am not saying get the most mismatched equipment you can find and try to bring it together, but that physics dictate that there are only a few ways to skin cats. You get those technologies that can be put together, and assembled. Yes, it will be tough. But I doubt it will be impossible. {I do agree that the numbers should represent something real.)

Second: There is a difference between knowing and suspecting who is behind a particular operation. My own experiences show that having only one opponent, enemy and/or competitor is quite rare in the world. The idea is to sow doubt, rather than confirm who was behind the mission. The fact you were targeted, I want to give you as much reason as possible to doubt who I am, and as much deniablity as possible, should things turn sour.

Third: You have a point about sensor tech versus stealth. Both are going to be on very high levels. However, that does not mean the entire ship has to be run like that. Your drive, sensors, communications, computers, life support, etc. can all utilize lower technology than is available.

It goes to dependablity, partially. What works, and what is still untried. Unless you absolutely need it for the mission, use as low a tech as practical. Use sound powered phones for internal coms instead of the latest hi tech stuff. Use a J-drive that has been out and about awhile, instead of the latest untried equipment.

Also lower tech is more dispersed tech, which also can add to the confusion and inability to confirm suspisions should the ship be captured.

Fourth: I probably did not state it correctly. I did not mean the Navy should use mercs. Just that those who do the op, should be able to convincingly appear as mercs. With documentation and possibly any memory alterations, (if feasable) necessary.

You may suspect me of doing the op. But the guys you captured are saying they don't know me, and have proof that they are somebody else altogether. What's more, our records show those guys were never part of the Navy, or had been kicked out/honorably discharged years ago, and never re-activiated. We don't know them, and they don't know us.

Fifth: I have not worked out the numbers, you might have a point. I want legs on that thing. I want it to be able to drop, insert a team and leave as quick as possible. If we can't do Jump 6, lets look at alternatives, (J-5, or drop tanks)

So I'll design the ship along the following lines:

- Imperial only technologie. No weird IISSish mix of material.

- Designed for small intel team stealth deployment (their are other ship more suitable in hot insertion/extraction) AND ELINT gathering (not picket ship, not C³ ship, not flank scouting of a fleet).

Can the ELINT be a module, swappable for a few low berths and gear for the team? Kind of like the modular cutter idea?

The other ships you mention, I think we can agree are more conventional military ships, and that such is a different discussion.

- Jump-torps do no exist: they're non-canon, and using them would need to redefine entierly the whole Traveller universe.

- Turret remains an option, if their is enough place, but I think the space used by such a turret would be better used by more electronics, more life support... It's a matter of priorities. We'll see.

I understand your position. I disagree, and hope your folks never find themselves in a hot LZ. Granted a turrent won't do much, but its better than nothing.

- The designed I'm basing myself on is equiped with some kind of boat (a landing sphere), I'll keep the idea I think: it makes sense to use a 10 dT stealth boat to deploy a covert team rather than landing with a ship of several hundreds dT.

Not bad overall. While you and I can disagree on some aspects, it looks pretty good.

 

[Drakon]

The American Navy, especially submarines, does this too. JOs split a stateroom, the XO/CO have single occupancy staterooms, the Chiefs have a separate bunking space, stacked 3 high, with a very small common area. The enlisted also have a common berthing area, with racks stacked 3 high. (It can be a bit unnerving being in the top bunk, which sometimes does not have enough room to turn over in.) The enlisted berthing area has no common room, that is located elsewhere, and there is also the mess decks that can be used between meals.

And there is the issue of hot bunking. Which, while not pleasant, is livable for months.

Spec ops and ELINT teams sleep with the crew. However, starship crews are a lot smaller. The ATV idea ain't bad, and on some missions would serve as a movable base of operations.