Exploring New/Unexplored Sectors

[Shikage]

Greetings all, I'm new the the forums and to Traveller as a whole. I was really intrigued by the detail for the generation of sectors, systems and right on down to the planets including the beasts and possible intelligent species on them.

While I am aware that Traveller already has quite an extensive universe setup with a lot of history and detail behind it, I'm interested in trying it out in something of a sandbox capacity with randomly generated.. well most everything.. and having the characters explore this unknown area of space, potentially encountering new intelligent species, finding resources or discovering profitable trade routes.

What I've been trying to piece together is the revealing of information to the group about the sector/subsector. If they are completely new to this region of space and have no previous information to go on is there a standard distance at which they can detect which grid locations have stars (and thus potentially planets and other useful things) or do they need to hop around until arriving in a grid location with a star and begin further exploring that area from there.. going in closer to find if it has planets, etc..

The space range sensors seem to operate more for within the system and not for longer range scans like trying to find all stars within jump range.

Thanks for any input on this.

 

[Spartan159]

This is something I am interested in as well. I think stars, gas giants and possibly some planets should be detectable at parsec ranges, and even water presence on some of them.

 

[David Johansen]

You should probably have the map showing the stars and might even have the planets though I'd suggest ruling that it takes some time and a survey of at least a day per parsecs to get that information.

Signals from TL 7 civilizations might provide some clues about the state of such worlds 3.25 years ago per parsec but I think you'd need a pretty unobscured path for them to not be totally scrambled by the electromagnetic stuff going on around other stars.

 

[robject]

So considering an unexplored subsector.

As David noted, you'd have the locations of star systems. If you wanted detail you'd also know the star types and if there is at least one gas giant present.

I might take the easy route and use the Universal World Profile as the next steps for exploration.

Starport. First, the clearest signal you'd get from a star system is coming from the starport. If there's a class A or B starport, then you might know it by pointing a radio telescope at the system and listening for a day or so. If the starport is more primitive, perhaps they would not really be able to tell.

Tech Level. Now you send Scouts into the system. This is out of the UWP order, but a modern-or-better TL would be detectible from the outsystem, as well, and would let the crew pinpoint the mainworld with 100% accuracy. If the mainworld doesn't have radio, well then you'll have to move in closer.

For starfaring TLs, you'll know because of the ships. For radio-enabled TLs, you'll know from radio. So you can get a general range of likely TL, but you won't know for sure until you've checked out the world.

World Size. You'd be able to detect the sizes of the planets in the system by spending some time in the outsystem, or perhaps a bit closer, just looking around. You'll also have the planets' Atmospheres logged, and know whether or not there is water present.

Hydrographics and Population. You'll know these when you get close enough to scope out the planet. Alternately, if the Tech Level is high enough, you might already have at least an estimate of how many people are on the world.

Government and Law Level. I suggest that government and law level (and TL to some extent) won't be pinned down until an "away team" visits the surface and talks with the population. I say this because Traveller is as much about sociology as it is technology. You can't solve everything with tech. At some point you have to get your hands dirty and interact with people. And have adventures.


DETECTION GUIDELINES

We can lock onto (because sensing in T5 is a Sensor Lock) a planet with Deep Space-ranged sensors.

Here's Marc's estimate for the Sizes of planetary features:

12=World Hex= 1000 km
10= Terrain hex= 100 km
9= Local Hex = 10 km
8= BCS Ship

So it looks like we can 'sense' better than just the presence of a world in Deep Space. We can discern features to 1000km resolution.

Since a Deep Space sensing task is very nearly linear, and it's reasonable to assume a sensor can attempt a task once per space combat round (=20 min), or 3x per hour, we can construct the time it takes to lock onto a planet with sensors at DS range.

 

[Shikage]

So considering an unexplored subsector.

As David noted, you'd have the locations of star systems. If you wanted detail you'd also know the star types and whether or not there are gas giants.

I might take the easy route and use the Universal World Profile as the next steps for exploration.

Starport. First, the clearest signal you'd get from a star system is coming from the starport. If there's a class A or B starport, then you might know it by pointing a radio telescope at the system and listening for a day or so. If the starport is more primitive, perhaps they would not really be able to tell.

Tech Level. Now you send Scouts into the system. This is out of the UWP order, but a modern-or-better TL would be detectible from the outsystem, as well, and would let the crew pinpoint the mainworld with 100% accuracy. If the mainworld doesn't have radio, well then you'll have to move in closer.

For starfaring TLs, you'll know because of the ships. For radio-enabled TLs, you'll know from radio. So you can get a general range of likely TL, but you won't know for sure until you've checked out the world.

World Size. You'd be able to detect the sizes of the planets in the system by spending some time in the outsystem, or perhaps a bit closer, just looking around.

Get a bit closer to each world and you'll have the Atmosphere and Hydrographics logged.

Population. You'll know this when you get close enough to scope out the planet. Alternately, if the Tech Level is high enough, you might already have at least an estimate of how many people are on the world.

Government and Law Level. I suggest that government and law level (and TL to some extent) won't be pinned down until an "away team" visits the surface and talks with the population. I say this because Traveller is as much about sociology as it is technology. You can't solve everything with tech. At some point you have to get your hands dirty and interact with people. And have adventures.
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I had been thinking something along these lines. Potentially just marking an asterisk (*) on the locations of stars... maybe putting in the star type. I wasn't sure if the presence of a gas giant would be something they could tell from the other end of the subsector really, so wasn't sure about that.. but figured it seemed reasonable they could at least pick out where there were stars, figure out which ones were within range and go take a closer look. And then, once in a star system, the use of regular sensors is reasonably laid out in the book for making a good process for surveying the planets, figuring out if there's likely tech advanced inhabitants, etc..

 

[Epee]

So considering an unexplored subsector.

As David noted, you'd have the locations of star systems. If you wanted detail you'd also know the star types and whether or not there are gas giants.

I might take the easy route and use the Universal World Profile as the next steps for exploration.

Starport. First, the clearest signal you'd get from a star system is coming from the starport. If there's a class A or B starport, then you might know it by pointing a radio telescope at the system and listening for a day or so. If the starport is more primitive, perhaps they would not really be able to tell.

Tech Level. Now you send Scouts into the system. This is out of the UWP order, but a modern-or-better TL would be detectible from the outsystem, as well, and would let the crew pinpoint the mainworld with 100% accuracy. If the mainworld doesn't have radio, well then you'll have to move in closer.

For starfaring TLs, you'll know because of the ships. For radio-enabled TLs, you'll know from radio. So you can get a general range of likely TL, but you won't know for sure until you've checked out the world.

World Size. You'd be able to detect the sizes of the planets in the system by spending some time in the outsystem, or perhaps a bit closer, just looking around.

Get a bit closer to each world and you'll have the Atmosphere and Hydrographics logged.

Population. You'll know this when you get close enough to scope out the planet. Alternately, if the Tech Level is high enough, you might already have at least an estimate of how many people are on the world.

Government and Law Level. I suggest that government and law level (and TL to some extent) won't be pinned down until an "away team" visits the surface and talks with the population. I say this because Traveller is as much about sociology as it is technology. You can't solve everything with tech. At some point you have to get your hands dirty and interact with people. And have adventures.
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Nice outline Robject.
However, at our current tech level we are detecting non-gas giant planets from scores of parsecs away. Granted this is with observatory-class equipment and so would require observation from another system rather than from a ship. Although I don't see why you couldn't design an "observatory ship" as a kind of scout service dreadnaught.
Also, while the exact proportion of water to solid surface would require a relatively close scan, the presence of water, the general proportion of surface covered in water (liquid or otherwise), and certainly the presence of an atmosphere and its composition could be determined from the outer system.

 

[Spartan159]

Nice outline Robject.
However, at our current tech level we are detecting non-gas giant planets from scores of parsecs away. Granted this is with observatory-class equipment and so would require observation from another system rather than from a ship. Although I don't see why you couldn't design an "observatory ship" as a kind of scout service dreadnaught.
Also, while the exact proportion of water to solid surface would require a relatively close scan, the presence of water, the general proportion of surface covered in water (liquid or otherwise), and certainly the presence of an atmosphere and its composition could be determined from the outer system.

I am thinking that this is where barbette / bay / main sensor mounts would come into play.

 

[mike wightman]

How big is the Kepler space telescope that has discovered so many new planets? Hubble is a bit bigger and the James Webb has a neat folding array mirror.

 

[robject]

I had been thinking something along these lines. Potentially just marking an asterisk (*) on the locations of stars... maybe putting in the star type. I wasn't sure if the presence of a gas giant would be something they could tell from the other end of the subsector really, so wasn't sure about that..

I'd say it's relatively straightforward inferring the presence of at least one gas giant, IF you've been studying the star for a period of weeks or months at a distance of, oh, up to 1 sector away with specialized equipment. Just look for the wobble in the star.

...at our current tech level we are detecting non-gas giant planets from scores of parsecs away. [...] I don't see why you couldn't design an "observatory ship" as a kind of scout service dreadnaught.

Also, while the exact proportion of water to solid surface would require a relatively close scan, the presence of water, the general proportion of surface covered in water (liquid or otherwise), and certainly the presence of an atmosphere and its composition could be determined from the outer system.

Thanks for that second point, Epee. I think we have the beginnings of a Survey Checklist.

As for your first point. First off, YES to the Survey Dreadnought or similar creative solutions!

Next.

As Spartan implied, once we're discussing technical matters, we are in the realm of the Rules. In this case Traveller5 tells us the range at which sensors can detect things, and that's based on the Range of the sensor, and the Size of the object.

We can therefore lock onto (because sensing in T5 is a Sensor Lock) a planet with Deep Space-ranged sensors, but we can't lock on further out.

Next, we know that a Deep Space sensing task is very nearly linear.

Next, it's reasonable to assume a sensor can attempt a task once per space combat round (=20 min), or 3x per hour.

From there, we can construct the time it would take to finally lock onto a planet with sensors at DS range.



DETECTING PLANETS AND PLANET FEATURES

Here's Marc's estimate for the Sizes of planetary features:

12=World Hex= 1000 km
10= Terrain hex= 100 km
9= Local Hex = 10 km
8= BCS Ship

So it looks like we can detect better than just the presence of a world in Deep Space. We can discern features to 1000km resolution.

 

[Spartan159]

On page 709 under Beyond it states that Space Ranges S=21 = 1 Light Year, S=22 = half parsec, and S=23 = 1 Parsec, with an interesting diagram on page 716. The question here is what is the resolution at S=23 or more?

Just for curiosity I wonder what space range 2+ parsecs would be?

 

[David Johansen]

One thing any Traveller TL 10+ ship can easily do that our best observatories can't accomplish is put together a decent variety of pictures from different positions to allow triangulation. With 1G reactionless thrust you don't have to wait for years to get a probe out far enough to provide a different frame of reference.

That said, I've always liked Starfire's drop through the warp point blind exploration system. Not the big pile up on the warp point battles but the zero data exploration aspect.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

A few points.

So considering an unexplored subsector.

As David noted, you'd have the locations of star systems. If you wanted detail you'd also know the star types and if there is at least one gas giant present.

I might take the easy route and use the Universal World Profile as the next steps for exploration.

Starport. First, the clearest signal you'd get from a star system is coming from the starport. If there's a class A or B starport, then you might know it by pointing a radio telescope at the system and listening for a day or so. If the starport is more primitive, perhaps they would not really be able to tell.

Tech Level. Now you send Scouts into the system. This is out of the UWP order, but a modern-or-better TL would be detectible from the outsystem, as well, and would let the crew pinpoint the mainworld with 100% accuracy. If the mainworld doesn't have radio, well then you'll have to move in closer.

For starfaring TLs, you'll know because of the ships. For radio-enabled TLs, you'll know from radio. So you can get a general range of likely TL, but you won't know for sure until you've checked out the world.

World Size. You'd be able to detect the sizes of the planets in the system by spending some time in the outsystem, or perhaps a bit closer, just looking around. You'll also have the planets' Atmospheres logged, and know whether or not there is water present.

Hydrographics and Population. You'll know these when you get close enough to scope out the planet. Alternately, if the Tech Level is high enough, you might already have at least an estimate of how many people are on the world.

Government and Law Level. I suggest that government and law level (and TL to some extent) won't be pinned down until an "away team" visits the surface and talks with the population. I say this because Traveller is as much about sociology as it is technology. You can't solve everything with tech. At some point you have to get your hands dirty and interact with people. And have adventures.


DETECTION GUIDELINES

We can lock onto (because sensing in T5 is a Sensor Lock) a planet with Deep Space-ranged sensors.

Here's Marc's estimate for the Sizes of planetary features:

12=World Hex= 1000 km
10= Terrain hex= 100 km
9= Local Hex = 10 km
8= BCS Ship

So it looks like we can 'sense' better than just the presence of a world in Deep Space. We can discern features to 1000km resolution.

Since a Deep Space sensing task is very nearly linear, and it's reasonable to assume a sensor can attempt a task once per space combat round (=20 min), or 3x per hour, we can construct the time it takes to lock onto a planet with sensors at DS range.

Here's the thing, the checklist is nice but I of course have some issues with a couple points.

Starports. If this a true frontier never forget there may not be a Star or even a Space Port. Those come with interstellar or at least spacing societies, not everyone will have them if there hasn't been an interstellar government to push them. Notice how TL-8 Earth here has no Starport and while it is cute Mojave is at best a Class G and more properly it's a Class H (since they have Traffic Control I'll let that fly as a Beacon, it's not but I do love the Homeworld).

Tech Level. That too is tricky. Yes mostly you are correct, but it is possible that a higher TL society won't show as radio especially if they are using Comm+ (MesonComms), though they may show as Neutrinos if they are using fission/fusion, though tide, wind and solar won't probably show. Now the nice thing is that if they are using radios things like Pop, Gov and Law are possibly detectable by analysing the chatter before you send teams down to poke around and maybe mess with the natives.

Otherwise I do like the list.

 

[whartung]

I think the trick here is having an interesting "Lewis and Clark" campaign. You have your home world, and J-1, and are part of the Scout Service out learning the ins and outs of these new star systems.

The home world would have the pick list of long study to prioritize targets, perhaps. They might have an idea of what's there, but obviously no real detail. So, the task is to scout and do astrography, map the Jump space, map the solar systems, categorize the planets.

Or you could be the follow up planet survey team. The initial pass is basic astrography with detail, the second pass gets boots on the ground to start mapping prospect worlds.

Whether you encounter intelligent life, is a completely separate issue.

 

[DonM]

I've had some ideas for a campaign game based on this, where each player starts with a basically identical system, each in separate subsectors, and the referee has an overall sector map.

I've had a couple of thoughts, including basically having one 'active' TL9 world in every subsector in hex 0506, with NPC worlds in the subsectors a player isn't in. Then using a system similar to what Rob outlined above for everyone to 4X in...

 

[Shikage]

I've had some ideas for a campaign game based on this, where each player starts with a basically identical system, each in separate subsectors, and the referee has an overall sector map.

I've had a couple of thoughts, including basically having one 'active' TL9 world in every subsector in hex 0506, with NPC worlds in the subsectors a player isn't in. Then using a system similar to what Rob outlined above for everyone to 4X in...

I think this comes closest to kind of the style I am going for as well. And a lot of great ideas here for things that can be discovered with prolonged exploration and study but at the same time, I'm interested in ideas on just what basic information players might be able to get on first arriving in a subsector. Though this idea does provide a good setup for this. If it's a case of first exploration out from the homeworld, that homeworld has likely done at least some general astronomical studies and likely knows there are stars around, where they're located and probably even a general idea if there are planets around it. It may not know specifics about the planets very well however and that's what the players are out there to find out.

 

[robject]

On page 709 under Beyond it states that Space Ranges S=21 = 1 Light Year, S=22 = half parsec, and S=23 = 1 Parsec, with an interesting diagram on page 716. The question here is what is the resolution at S=23 or more?

Just for curiosity I wonder what space range 2+ parsecs would be?

This is uncharted. You're basically asking what a "Size 21+" object is.

Of course we know that stars are detectable at multiple-sector ranges...

 

[whartung]

Mostly comes down to how long a star must be studied from afar to "learn all we can" about it.

I don't know the details of how planets are detected, but as I understand it, it's mostly charting the gravitic effects on the primary, how it bobbles and wobbles over time (mind, I'm making all this up, could be completely wrong). The key point is that I'm assuming it takes time to study.

Not so much that the telescope/sensor has to watch the system for, say, a year. But several readings over a year perhaps to make a guess as to what might be there. That way you can chart the behaviors of the primary to make your conclusions.

For exploration, once you have a stable star drive, I think the primary concern is simply fuel. Either the destination has to have a suitable gas giant to refuel, or you need to bring your own.

Once it has been determined that you can safely return from the system, it's far more efficient to send a ship out and get a detailed chart than to wait a year to get just an inkling.

If I can get a ship out and back over a month or two, then I'll have far most details of the system than I can get peering at it from afar.

With a subsector, you have a limited number of targets (vs "the galaxy") to focus you attentions on, so that can help some.

This is why I figured by the time a star drive was discovered and practical, and a ship built, the scientists could use that time to do their remote observations to narrow down their most favorite likely targets for early discovery. In the end, it may just end up being a monster fuel caching exercise in deep space and simply the closest systems get surveyed first.

 

[cym0k]

I love this idea, great thread.

Starports. If this a true frontier never forget there may not be a Star or even a Space Port. Those come with interstellar or at least spacing societies, not everyone will have them if there hasn't been an interstellar government to push them. Notice how TL-8 Earth here has no Starport and while it is cute Mojave is at best a Class G and more properly it's a Class H (since they have Traffic Control I'll let that fly as a Beacon, it's not but I do love the Homeworld).

This is the sticking point for me. As soon as you decide to have another spacefaring race that has the TL and impetus to "see what's out there" you suddenly have to start creating that race/government/empire/thing. Mind blowing and potentially a real time sink. But still, could be fun to explore.

 

[Shikage]

As soon as you decide to have another spacefaring race that has the TL and impetus to "see what's out there" you suddenly have to start creating that race/government/empire/thing. Mind blowing and potentially a real time sink. But still, could be fun to explore.

Actually, for me.. all that time sink and generation work is what I am looking forward to. Chances are I will likely do this as more of a solo experiment and just playing with the rules but I think it will be a lot of fun slowly uncovering more and more about the systems and planets in a sector as I go. Potentially discovering profitable trade routes, or interesting sources of resources, etc..

Coming across other intelligent life which may or may not have space travel capabilities, different wildlife, creating organizations and factions could be additionally interesting though I've not seen much on how I might tackle that particular bit just yet.. but perhaps I'll uncover it as I go. I think there were some cases where NIL were colonists or similar, and actually arrived from one of the other races, this kind of working to define what the worlds are that are controlled by each race in the general area.

 

[Fovean]

Our own culture has been studying distant stars for millennia. One must assume cultures around other stars would be doing the same, if they have the ability/capability to do so. Every millennium that passes grants us more insight and information.

By the time Jump technology rolls around, a given culture should have a precise understanding of what stars are around it, their classifications and spectra and also know that a handful of planets orbit said stars (or don't as the case may be). They will also have a basic understanding of some of these planets (gas giant, super earth, possibly even detecting "earth-like" worlds).

So give your Scouts a treasure map of sorts - here's a place we could likely colonize, here's a world made of diamond, here's a place that could possibly harbor alien life... And in between are refueling (ahem, adventure) locations...