CT Only: Five Sisters Clipper

[Grav_Moped]

I think you're mistaken.

12 exchanges of fire? You only have three turns of fire from a turret missile launcher before reloading under LBB2. High Guard doesn't care about reloading, so it's not directly transferable.

LBB2 '81 is quite specific about this (p.32).
"Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. That means a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.

When a launcher's missiles or canisters are exhausted, it may be reloaded by the turret's gunner in one turn. Reloading three launchers would take three turns. A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weapons in the turret."

Some tasks can be done in parallel. Some can't. I'd argue that you could add gunners mates to speed the process (or, more likely, an autoloader), but LBB2 does not cover this so you'd need house rules.

I'd agree that you could have one or more turrets slaved to another, so that one person could aim all of them at a single target*. The drawback is that only one single missile could be the target during the anti-missile phase (but all lasers would fire at it), and the only choices the gunner would have would be to selectively not fire one or more turrets' weapons in a given turn (say, only firing one sandcaster round from one turret instead of one from every turret). And, of course, the -1 skill level penalty per turret.

To target multiple targets would require one gunner per turret, or to consider a gunner operating multiple turrets to be shifting fire (-6DM).


----------------------
*implemented either with a computer program as I described above, or with a linkage created using Electronics, Computer, Gunnery, and Mechanical skills in combination. Battery fire under High Guard rules requires High Guard manning levels in the absence of house rules declaring otherwise.

 

[Grav_Moped]

A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weapons in the turret

Which under your interpretation would allow a gunner-2 to reload one missile launcher while firing other weapons in the turret.

He can do the work of two gunners! One is being the "gunner engaged in reloading," the other is being the "gunner firing the other weapons". It's not like he'd be getting in his own way, since there's only one of him.

This is clearly not the intent of the rules, of course.

 

[Spinward Flow]

A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weapons in the turret.

Correct.
If a turret is undergoing what you call reloading (and which I call restocking, for reasons detailed below), the TURRET is unavailable for any other purpose, meaning other weapons in the turret cannot be fired during the combat round that a turret is being reloaded (or as I call it, restocking).
Not just the missile rack.
Not just the sandcaster.
Not just the laser or energy weapon.
The entire turret goes down for reloading (restocking).

I challenge you to come up with any other interpretation that fits "unable to fire other weapons in the turret" as specified by RAW.

---

Which under your interpretation would allow a gunner-2 to reload one missile launcher while firing other weapons in the turret.

That is a flagrantly false accusation and I await your apology for having made it.
I have said NO SUCH THING.
I made NO SUCH INTERPRETATION.

YOU DID ... on your own ... unprompted ... and then falsely blamed me for making it when you are clearly the only one who said it first.

If the turret is unavailable to fire because it is being restocked (by hand or by autoloader, makes no difference to me or even the game mechanics, really) then that entire turret is "offline" for the duration of the restocking. Having a higher gunnery skill level doesn't change that or make the restocking happen faster or make the "time offline" shorter or any of that. If it takes 20 minutes to restock (for example, which would be 1 combat round) then it takes 20 minutes to restock, regardless of the skill level(s) of the gunner involved or overseeing the process.

While a turret is being restocked, the entire turret is offline and unavailable to fire any weapons mounted in that turret.
THAT is my interpretation (which I note you did not ask for nor solicit before inventing your own interpretation and accusing me of having made it). Such an interpretation is consistent with (and I quote you):

A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weapons in the turret.

Where a Gunnery-2/Gunnery-2 crew skill tasking would come into play is that if that 1 Gunner were controlling/commanding the fire of 2 mixed turrets (say, from a workstation on the bridge), they could "stagger restocking" such that only one turret is offline for restocking at a time (A goes offline to restock, B keeps firing ... then A comes back online next round to resume firing while B goes offline to restock) in order to keep 1 of the 2 turrets online and engaged while the other restocks (presumably by autoloader in this example). THAT would be my interpretation ... not whatever fabulist projection you obviously came up with on your own without consulting me first before accusing me of holding that belief.

---

12 exchanges of fire? You only have three turns of fire from a turret missile launcher before reloading under LBB2.

That's because CT SS3 Missiles, p7 goes into greater detail than LBB2 does (go figure).

MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in that turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.

1+2 = 3
Additional 12 (this is where I got my 12 shots from).

Once the first 3 shots have been expended, reloading with new missiles must be done, but a gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn (citation above).

Only after ALL of the missiles have been expended from a turret (1 ready plus 12 additional reloads) does the turret need restocking (not reloading, restocking, there's a difference). Restocking a turret with missiles is what takes the turret offline for a combat round game turn (next round).

So technically speaking, a turret with missile launchers will have 1 missile ready to fire per launcher in the turret, plus up to 12 additional missiles loaded into the turret itself ready for transfer into the launcher (no step and fetch from the hold/magazine required).

A single turret with a single missile launcher would have 1 missile ready to fire and 12 additional missiles stored in the turret (so +12 combat rounds before needing to go offline to restock).
A dual turret with dual missile launcher would have 2 missiles ready to fire and 12 additional missiles stored in the turret (so +6 combat rounds before needing to go offline to restock).
A triple turret with triple missile launcher would have 3 missiles ready to fire and 12 additional missiles stored in the turret (so +4 combat rounds before needing to go offline to restock).

Single = 13 shots before restock needed (1+12=13/1=13)
Dual = 7 shots before restock needed (2+12=14/2=7)
Triple = 5 shots before restock needed (3+12=15/3=5)

Restocking is what takes the entire turret offline for the next combat round ... as specified by RAW.

Although the Missiles Supplement doesn't address it directly, it's reasonable to assume that sand and missiles are effectively interchangeable on this point of logistics when it comes to turret capacity and ordnance expenditure (both are 50kg each per shot).
Note that 12x 50kg = 600kg, which is where I got that number from.

So a dual mixed turret of sandcaster/missile would have 1 sand shot and 1 missile in their respective launchers in the turret. The additional 12 storage could be evenly divided between them (6+6) or there could be less sand than missiles (5+7 or 4+8) under the assumption that (fresh) sand might not be needed every single combat round (all incoming attacks cleanly MISS their to-hit rolls, so no need to expend sand for defense), so there's some flexibility there, depending on operational assumptions for the mission profile.

Lasers and other EP based weapons are good for sustained, longer term combat (you just need fuel in the fuel tanks and power plant power), but missiles and sand will need additional tonnage (preferably a magazine of some kind, which can include cargo space if necessary) to sustain fire for longer periods of time than just a (double) handful of combat rounds. For most merchant ships, any kind of ship-to-ship exchange of fire will often times be "decided" (one way or another) before 7 combat rounds have elapsed, with long duration run and gun engagements being some serious edge cases. So dual launchers (sand/missile) in a triple turret (with a laser) makes for a pretty decent and flexible low end civilian/paramilitary combat loadout for ships that would prefer to avoid combat ... but can engage when pressured into it by necessity.

 

[Grav_Moped]

This is, of course, outside the scope of LBB2 -- which is both my point and yours.

 

[Spinward Flow]

This is, of course, outside the scope of LBB2 -- which is both my point and yours.

So, first you make a flagrantly false claim that you attribute to me instead of yourself ... and then rather than apologize, you make yet another flagrantly false claim instead in yet another textbook case of projection.

I could say more ... if I thought it would help you.
But I am now convinced I would simply be wasting my time.
So I'll just leave you with this bit of folklore wisdom.

Some people drink from the fountain of knowledge, while others merely gargle.
And some pee in it ...

 

[Grav_Moped]

You should heed your own advice. And that's as personal as I'm going to get, here.

 

[mike wightman]

Perhaps if you went back and read your own posts on your own thread you would see that Grav Moped has a point:

Rules Only: - The economics of crew skills

LBB2.81 p16 (with emphasis added for clarity of the point I'm going to be making): One person may fill two crew positions, providing he or she has the skill to otherwise perform the work. However, because of the added burden, each position is filled with skill minus one, and the individual...

www.travellerrpg.com

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That's because CT SS3 Missiles, p7 goes into greater detail than LBB2 does (go figure).

MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.

1+2 = 3
Additional 12 (this is where I got my 12 shots from).

Agreed, so a total of fifteen missiles with one missile rack. At least according to the missile supplement, not LBB2.

Once the first 3 shots have been expended, reloading with new missiles must be done, but a gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn (citation above).

Agreed.

Only after ALL of the missiles have been expended from a turret (1 ready plus 12 additional reloads) does the turret need restocking (not reloading, restocking, there's a difference). Restocking a turret with missiles is what takes the turret offline for a combat round game turn (next round).

Yes, after all 15 missiles have been expended the turret needs to be restocked. It can either be done by the gunner or a separate loader. If it is done by the gunner, the gunner is unable to fire the turret the next round. If it is done by a loader, no such consequences are specified: Presumably the gunner is unaffected and can continue to fire the turret uninterrupted.

MISSILE STORAGE
...
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.

Nothing is said about the turret being offline.

So technically speaking, a turret with missile launchers will have 1 missile ready to fire per launcher in the turret, plus up to 12 additional missiles loaded into the turret itself ready for transfer into the launcher (no step and fetch from the hold/magazine required).

A single turret with a single missile launcher would have 1 missile ready to fire and 12 additional missiles stored in the turret (so +12 combat rounds before needing to go offline to restock).

Technically each missile rack holds three missiles and the turret an additional 12, for a total of 15-21 missiles.

A turret with a single missile rack can carry 15 missiles, so can fire 15 times before needing to restock.

MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns.
...
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).

 

[aramis]

enogh of the sniping at each other