• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Fixing T5 - NPC DAMAGE

If you keep reading, the second paragraph in that section is very clear.

The overall section you are reading on page 214 is: INJURY, WOUND, AND DAMAGE.

The sub-section is: NPC Effects.

You can tell by the all-caps, and then the lower case, as used.

The next sub-section is: Detailed Effects.

And, the final sub-section is: Long Term Effects.

All fo the sub-sections illuminate aspects of the main section, which is: INJURY, WOUNDS, AND DAMAGE.


I am 100% sure that you are wrong in this case.

Post it as a T5 "Fix" for those who want to use it.

Most of the above post has nothing to do with what I said. I know what each section is discussing and what it is a subset of. My entire point about NPC effects being about ignoring the piddly details of Hits, Stuns, etc. (effects) is entirely dependent on that very point. So thanks for helping my argument again.

That being said, the biggest reason I think everyone is misinterpreting this rule is that no realistic Player Character could ever expect to survive (without going unconscious at the very least) 10 hits in an entire encounter, let alone a single round. So why should all NPC's. even a 4-year-old child, be able to take more damage than a PC?

Don't believe me about PC survival? That is because you are skipping an important rule. Page 225, The Types of Damage: "Hit = Hits to C1, C2, C3" followed by "Hits to Characteristics are applied randomly and in Dice amounts"

So, if a players armor is penetrated by a bullet, which does Hit damage, then for each Hit the player takes a dice of damage to a random characteristic. Mathematical odds say that even with A's across the board 10 hits will guarantee 1 stat drops to 0, 2 is fairly likely, and 3 is a still reasonably possible.

I find my interpretation of the rules much more satisfying than genuinely believing that the actual intended interpretation is that we are to ignore the injuries themselves, not merely just the effects, as I posit.


However, despite the obvious massive stacking of the entire system against the PC making a run in with just 2 thugs almost a guaranteed loss (unless you brawl them), there is still hope! If you ignore HIT SYSTEM V0, as I have seen suggested in other threads because it is supposedly just added as an optional rule, then Hits don't cause characters to loose the use of limbs, go unconscious, or even die. The due reduce stats of course, which can be worse than dying if the enemy is still around to capture you, but you are still alive pretty much no matter what. It isn't just Hits either... Even being dropped in a pool of lava doesn't seem to cause any lasting harm as long as someone fishes you out. All that heat does is cause damage to C1-C4 as well as unconsciousness if you fail a C3 check. But death? Nope, doesn't say it causes death.

Don't believe me again? No problem. Read the entire core book VERY carefully. No where in it other than in V0 does it say what the actual EFFECT of a wound or characteristic reduction is on the character (we even have to just ASSUME that a reduced characteristic lowers C+S rolls). It has a system for determining where you are hit. It tells you how sever the injury is on a table that is apparently just used to set the difficulty of healing the wound. It tells you (mostly) how a medic can diagnose and treat the injury. What it doesn't tell you is what the actual impact is to your character. It doesn't say when Hit (or most other types of injuries) by themselves are severe enough to cause unconsciousness, or even when they cause death. As far as I can tell the only way to die is old age...

Still doubt me? Do what I did and search on the master PDF for:

death, dies, dead, unconscious, wound, severity, injury, Hit system V1, etc. I did those for the entire document, and a few other related things, and nowhere in the rules other than V0 did it say what the actual effect of characteristic damage is on a character. I may have missed something, but I doubt it. The rules seem to be missing some rather important stuff, both for and against the player, which is disappointing. The mass of errors, mix of old tables and text with new, poor or missing examples, and complete lack of discussion of some of the most basic rules, like injury effects, makes the book a big paperweight. Hopefully there will be an updated PDF version at some point with most of this fixed so we can have all the rules in one place, instead of having to rely on separate errata.
 
...
6 on 1D = 17%
11+ on 2D = 8%
11+ on 3D = 50%
11+ on 4D = 84%
11+ on 5D = 97%

Your suggestion makes for a wonky dip in the odds for 2D. Logically, you'd want the chance to knock out an NPC to grow greater with increasing damage, not smaller, then greater.
You mis-interpreted the suggestion, which I had kept intentionally terse (ala Marc).

Even allowing for the ambiguity I intentionally presented, a reader would have to make the additional incorrect assumption that 'Roll 2D' was an error on my part in order to come to the illogical conclusion above.

Such is a good demonstration of how failing to apply simple logic regarding context can result in wrong interpretations. ;)

BytePro said:
That makes odds of putting NPCs out of action exactly the same for 1D and 2D damage.

Roll 2D and increase the target to 11+ halves the odds.
Your suggestion applied to 1D damage. It effectively made 2D weapon damage = 1D weapon damage.

My suggestion was to fix your broken suggested house rule by instead rolling 2D against NPCs with 11+ taking them out for 1D damage cases. ;)

So,
11+ on 2D = 8% (in place of 1D)
10+ on 2D = 17%
10+ on 2D = 63%
10+ on 3D = 90%
10+ on 4D = 98%

Not saying its elegant (its not, IMO) - inherently it is an exception to the overly simplistic rule. Further, with odds down to 1 in 12, it doesn't sound like much fun to play in cases where the battle is just supposed to pit PCs against some disposable 'mooks'.

In practice, if a PC is using a 1D damage weapon, then the 10+ rule is obviously inadequate. Just as obviously, a simple 'fix' would be to just use the normal PC rules.

In context, the rule makes sense for dealing at a high level with NPCs that have not been fleshed out and/or are high in count with the expectation that PC weapons will be sufficient to take out the NPCs. Logically, if a rule doesn't apply - don't apply it. If there is an existing, workable rule, apply it.

Please note - I am not advocating not pointing out potential flaws in the rules, obvious or otherwise. I'm certainly not assuming there are none, nor that you, in particular, are intentionally trying to find fault with the rules. If nothing else, pointing out that rules are unclear or have editing errors is very useful - and I THANK YOU for doing such, even when I disagree with your proposed solutions or potential mis-interpretations.
 
I guess you made a typo here too, and you mean:

Yes. Thanks. I wrote as I was going to bed. Tired.



So,
11+ on 2D = 8% (in place of 1D)
10+ on 2D = 17%
10+ on 2D = 63%
10+ on 3D = 90%
10+ on 4D = 98%


But, then, we'd have to change GunMaker and T5 weapons, not to mention a lot of the damage results on page 260 (several of which are 1D).

Thus, your suggested rule would require a change in several other parts of the rules.

The change I suggest in the OP would not.
 
Hello all, first post here, so allow me to introduce myself: I've been a CT player for a few years, never touched any other edition, and donated to the Kickstarter because it seemed like the best way to reward Marc for the enjoyment I've had with the game so far (I bought the long books second-hand). I also looked forward to having the "Ultimate and definitive version" of the game. I sought out the forums largely because of this particular rule, figuring that I must be reading it wrong.

My initial interpretation was the same as S4's, that an NPC doesn't go down unless 10 damage is done in a single attack. So whatever the intent of the rule was, as written, a new ref or player is fairly likely to understand it the same way. I do like Arentol's interpretation, although an argument based on semantics, particularly in a book rife with errors, seems dubious.

In any case, both fixes seem workable, and I'll likely give them each a try at my table before I decide which (if either) I will use. So thank you both.

One more item before I go, just for the sake of accuracy in all things: In WEG Star Wars D6, the wild die was not open-ended. It indicated an unexpected consequence. A 6 meant something good happened, regardless of the outcome of the rest of the roll (Solo and Leia meeting the Ewoks as a result of Han's failed Sneak roll). A 1 meant something bad (brilliant escape, but now you're in a garbage masher). Some refs likely replaced the story-based rule with a mechanics one in order to simplify their lives, but it isn't the actual rule.
 
But, then, we'd have to change GunMaker and T5 weapons, not to mention a lot of the damage results on page 260 (several of which are 1D).
Only applies when dealing damage to NPCs - in the same way that the rule applies already for 2D and above.

The NPC injury rule is, after all, a hack. Your suggestion is also a hack - one that is broken in making all 1D and 2D damage effectively the same.

My suggestion is just less broken. ;)
 
RE: Arentol's explanation.

I have just re-read the combat sections on wounds, and although Arentol makes an interesting case, I don't think he's correct.

Page 222 is the clearest on this matter.

Code:
[B]INJURY OVERVIEW[/B]
 
Injury or Damage in excess of those stopped 
by Amor or Protection is applied to the Target.
 
For Non-Player Characters and Equipment, make 
a simple assessment of Out-of-Action if Injury or 
Damage is 10+.
 
For Player Characters and Equipment, assess 
detailed Injury and Damage as necessary.


I think the above is pretty clear.

1. A successful attack is made.
2. Roll Damage. Check Penetration.
3. If 10+ points penetrate, then NPC is out of action. If 9- points penetrate, then ignore the damage.

There is no bookkeeping on NPCs, tracking their damage until they reach 10 points.

Remember, when armor is penetrated just once, it is no longer useful as protection for the remainder of the combat.
 
One more item before I go, just for the sake of accuracy in all things: In WEG Star Wars D6, the wild die was not open-ended.

I am mistaken; I just double-checked my SW rulebook, and the wild die on a six is open-ended. I wonder why I remember that differently? Maybe it changed between 1st and 2nd edition.
 
I am mistaken; I just double-checked my SW rulebook, and the wild die on a six is open-ended. I wonder why I remember that differently? Maybe it changed between 1st and 2nd edition.

There is no Wild Die in 1st edition D6 Star Wars. It was introduced with 2nd Edition.

That's probably why you don't remember it.
 
There is no Wild Die in 1st edition D6 Star Wars. It was introduced with 2nd Edition.

That's probably why you don't remember it.

Never saw first edition, so there you go.

I just remember that I had a flak vest that had 1d protection that more than once protected me from more than 30 points of blaster fire.

Blasters are indeed random and unreliable.
 
I just remember that I had a flak vest that had 1d protection that more than once protected me from more than 30 points of blaster fire.

You must have had a very strong character. Resistance to blaster fire in that game is done by roll STR + Armor.

If you had a Wookie, with 5D STR, then added another 1D armor, it's only a 2% chance that you'd completely avert 30 points of blaster damage.
 
You must have had a very strong character. Resistance to blaster fire in that game is done by roll STR + Armor.

If you had a Wookie, with 5D STR, then added another 1D armor, it's only a 2% chance that you'd completely avert 30 points of blaster damage.

2D Strength. What did the job is that was one hella well made flak jacket. It cascaded 4 times on one and 5 times on the other.
 
Back
Top