Free Traders - stuck in star clusters?

[McPerth]

MP = Merchant Prince. Ah, right. Took me a few minutes, not one I run into much.

Sorry about that, I should have put its full name (at least) the first time I told about it.

When push comes to shove, the game-master has to have a role in things. Rules are fine, and I will gladly add my voice to the call for better rules, but at some point rules become an abdication of responsibility. Your players land with full cargo at a world with 200 TL2 people. Do you follow the rules, however insane they might be, leaving your players wealthier but vaguely disturbed at the unreality of it all? Do you drop the rules and impose a stiff dose of reality - "Really? Now? You couldn't have mentioned this BEFORE we left the starport and jumped here??" Or do you exercise that magnificent piece of wetware between your ears and come up with some of the clever innovation the game is famous for?

If you are going to allow the absurdity of a TL2 200-person world hanging between two high tech trade worlds to exist in your own TU, then you had better go into the game with some idea of why 200 people are hanging out at TL2 on a trade route between two technologically advanced systems, and it had better be something a lot better than, "Oh, that's what the book says."
You're free to edit out whatever absurdities crop up, and it's not terribly hard to do that on the fly: "Oh, no, that's TL12; the library database has some errors in it."

Agreed with you about if there are some rules you (or your gaming group) find fully absrud, simply ignore them or change them for house rules, but OTOH, if you want to play it with different groups, you wither adapt the rules for all of them or must play with rules as written, as you should if you want to play with unknown people (e.g. in a games convention).

And in any case, I expected the more absurd rules to be the first ones to be washed away in the next versión, and yet MP have remained through many of them.

Perhaps most people loves them, but, personally, the only reason for that is if you want to get rich (and so, to a point, to"win") without risk (and so without challenge), as there is none in MP trade rules.

 

[McPerth]

A TL2 world with a pop of 200 tells me they're colonists or employees of someone.

The Gov digit would have something to say about this, I guess (though I agree a stable pop of 200 persons is not sustenaible, as with time they will either grow or disappear, and accept new blood or fall into endogamy.

The TL2 isn't their knowledge, it's their production capability. So they may very well be in the market for luxury goods, depending.

You may well be right, but in any case 200 persons need (an can afford) only so many luxury goods, not the full hold of any tramp freighter just happening to call there...

 

[Marchand]

Quick and simple fix 1): define Trade Potential as (Pop-2); that is the exponent for tons of cargo a free trader should expect to be able to offload.

So the Pop-2 world will have a demand of 10^0 = single tons of cargo.

Slightly more complex fix 2): if using CT Book 2 trade - just as you roll on the trade goods table to see what's available to buy, you also do so to see what's in demand. Optionally, combine with 1) above.

So the Pop-2 world might only need 7T of trade goods - 4T of Petrochemicals and 3T of Firearms.

Admittedly, this fix still has some rough edges - what if our 200 TL-2 natives really want to buy a load of Radioactives this week? Ref could re-roll implausible results; rationalise them somehow (in best CT tradition); or draw up bespoke Demand Tables for worlds that are going to be visited frequently.

How I might do it is have a Demand Table with 1 good per Pop level and 1 per TL, starting with the most commonly-demanded objects like raw materials or offworld weapons, working your way up to sophisticated high-tech goods for the Reginas and Glistens.

EDIT: demand will be basically unconstrained for a free trader at Pop=5 and above; these worlds will buy thousands of tons of cargo per visit. Better not touch down just after Tukera's monthly freight run though... Also, option 2) might restrict what they want to buy.

 

[Carlobrand]

Well for one thing we will then have a twenty page discussion about how to best calculate the GWP from UWP data, which will then have too be calculated for every world in range of the PCs to begin with and then someone will try to calculate it for every world in the Imperium and find a couple of flaws and declare the whole thing hopelessly unrealistic ...

Obviously there is only one right way to do things, and that would be mine. :devil:

 

[rancke]

Obviously there is only one right way to do things, and that would be mine. :devil:

We need a twenty page discussion about that, methinks.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

And so it begins...



I really think that Hans is onto something here. A way to maintain the free trader paradigm and introduce a bit of realism and adventure potential - win win in my book.

 

[RandyB]

Good point. The DM needs to keep his thinking cap on, but the players are every bit as responsible for behaving with verisimilitude - and we really need rules that don't let every Tom, Dick or Harry become a Sam Walton.

We also need rules that don't prohibit that outcome, nor make it dependent on a run of good die rolls.

 

[Carlobrand]

We also need rules that don't prohibit that outcome, nor make it dependent on a run of good die rolls.

Well, I've not seen any signs of trouble in that direction, but I agree that any solution needs to be reasonably balanced.

I think Rancke's idea is a very good first step. In fact, we'd do all right even if it were the only step; it needs to be seriously considered for inclusion in errata. We could get around the 20-page discussion on GWP by setting a per-person cash amount, modified by tech level and trade characteristics, maybe include some random element, call that the cash available for purchases. Achieves the same end with about the same numbers without directly referencing the world's GWP and getting into arguments about that.

Might also be useful to set some hard-and-fast rules, such as worlds don't buy what they can't use. Selling tech that depends on electricity would seem to be a bad idea on a world that didn't have electricity.

 

[aramis]

a simpler to implement routine would be to roll on the available lots table to see how many lots worth (at KCr 10 per ton) can be bought readily. KCr10 is the median value on the CT table, IIRC. )

 

[Garyius2003]

Let's agree that a TL2 200pop world has whatever trade the GM wants. Not real hard to come up with a trade list in this case, and the general rules won't really fit no matter how we refine them.

Same rule for Capital/Core, for the opposite reasons.

Outliers can't be governed by a set of general rules.

Also, it is a game, and if the PCs get a hot tip from a contact or computer raid that world X really really needs a load of Y for time Z only, let it fly for game reasons no matter what subrule 4 on table 2 on page 47 of GURPs Far Trader says.

 

[Carlobrand]

a simpler to implement routine would be to roll on the available lots table to see how many lots worth (at KCr 10 per ton) can be bought readily. KCr10 is the median value on the CT table, IIRC. )

I presume you are referring to the Book-7/MT Referee Manual table.

Let me see if I understand the table: first you roll number of lots, where the range for major cargoes is from 1d6-4 for small worlds to 1D6+6 for the largest worlds, for minor cargoes is from 1d6-4 for small worlds to 1D6+7 for the largest worlds, and then the incidental cargoes which range from zip to 1d6 - with modifiers for the pop size of the destination world and a few other bits. Then you roll for the size of each lot: 1d6+10 for major cargoes, 1d6+5 for minor cargoes, straight 1d6 for incidentals. (I couldn't find "major" or "minor" defined in Book 7.)

That's a, "How much cargo is available for transport," table, but we want to use it to figure how much stuff the world is interested in buying. So, for our 200 people, we roll 1d6-2? 0 to 4 lots? We could call them a destination world, since they're receiving your goods, but that seems like a double whammy. Okay, so now we know they want 0 to 4 lots of something, with each lot being 1D6+10 dTons? So, on average these people are willing to buy 1 2/3 lots of 13.5 dTons?

That's quite a bit better than 100 dTons, but it still seems like a whopping lot for 200 people. Base price is Cr5000/dTon, plus this, minus that; low pop worlds pay a premium of +Cr1000, and the tech level premium's 10% per point of difference. So we're saying: a third of the time these 200 people don't want anything, and the rest of the time they might be willing to pay ~Cr12000 per dTon for 11 to 16 dTons of from 1 to 4 different items? And then we still need to roll minor cargo? Still seems like a fair chunk of their weekly paycheck. Maybe we do have to toss in that -3 for low-pop destination world, since you're selling to them and otherwise it gets absurd. Means 5 in 6 times they want nothing and 1 in 6 times they want one 11-16 dTon lot (for major cargo, then roll again for the minor). Maybe; maybe if they're only seeing one or two free traders a month.

Meanwhile, on the other extreme, you've landed on a world of 10 billion and they only want 11 to 16 dTons of 7 to 12 different items? Well, you're a free trader - they get the bulk of what they want from the bigger boys in regular shipments and you're just filling in gaps, where you were probably accounting for most of that week's trade for the tiny world.

I like some of that. It certainly makes you diversify, since you can't count on selling more than a few dTons of any one item. No getting rich off one lucky roll. However, I still think it needs tweaking at the bottom of the scale.

 

[aramis]

Actually, I stated KCr10 per Td instead, because that's the median of Bk2. I was wrong, tho - the median on the book 2 table is (not accounting for lot size) KCr30. (Adjusting for lot sizes, however, it's actually KCr1500. And the average is actually KCr118.5 something by average tonnage, and KCr873.4 or so without accounting for tonnage.)

And don't bother differentiating the items, just treat it as different buyers (which means each rolling separately for time to pick up — for a tramp, saving a day or two can be important). But the table, just for reference, is already in book 2, on page 11 -

So your sample pop 1 world rolls 1d-2 major, 1d-1 minor. an average of 1.5 major (1d6x10 ea) and 2.5 minor (1d6 x5 each) for an average of (1.5x35)+(2.5x17.5)) 96 tons worth. Or about KCr960 - not enough to buy even a ton of computers, more than enough to buy 3200 tons of grain. On a good day, it could be KCr3900 - enough to buy a couple tons of computers (but only as a "divy that lot up" deal). Don't roll for what they're looking for, just roll to see how many buyers and how much cash, then apply some roleplaying to actually move it.

 

[Carlobrand]

Actually, I stated KCr10 per Td instead, because that's the median of Bk2. I was wrong, tho - the median on the book 2 table is (not accounting for lot size) KCr30. (Adjusting for lot sizes, however, it's actually KCr1500. And the average is actually KCr118.5 something by average tonnage, and KCr873.4 or so without accounting for tonnage.)

And don't bother differentiating the items, just treat it as different buyers (which means each rolling separately for time to pick up — for a tramp, saving a day or two can be important). But the table, just for reference, is already in book 2, on page 11 -

So your sample pop 1 world rolls 1d-2 major, 1d-1 minor. an average of 1.5 major (1d6x10 ea) and 2.5 minor (1d6 x5 each) for an average of (1.5x35)+(2.5x17.5)) 96 tons worth. Or about KCr960 - not enough to buy even a ton of computers, more than enough to buy 3200 tons of grain. On a good day, it could be KCr3900 - enough to buy a couple tons of computers (but only as a "divy that lot up" deal). Don't roll for what they're looking for, just roll to see how many buyers and how much cash, then apply some roleplaying to actually move it.

Sample pop 2 world.

So, 200 people are buying 3200 tons of grain (or something) at a cost of 960 thousand credits. They - must be very hungry . Presumably it represents a week of wheeling and dealing on the part of the ship. That's an average: if you head out and come back a month later, they're doing it again. Whether or not they're buying the same product, those 200 people are spending close to a million a month, minimum, and that assuming you're the only one making the trip. Which presumably means they're exporting close to a million credits a month, minimum (or else they've found a way to print money at TL2). Which means an income of Cr20,000 per month per household - IF the players are the only ones trading. If there's a ship coming through every week, wow!

I'm thinking they either have absolutely no concept of child labor laws, or they've got one very lucrative export market going on for a TL2 world, or most likely both.

On the other hand, if you apply that destination world -4 DM, they haven't any interest in large cargoes and only have occasional interest in minor cargoes: 1 in 6 chance of interest in one cargo of 1d6x5 dTons. So, 1 in 6 chance of spending Cr175,000 in a week, which for the 200 is much more reasonable as it means the import-export trade accounts for about Cr2300 per household per month. Not as joyful for the player, but much more reasonable.

The player doesn't refer to that table when buying their speculative cargo; it only comes into play when he's seeking customers to transport cargo for, and THEY have to worry about the size of the receiving world. So, it seems right that the players hit the same DM the merchants back at their departure had to deal with when the players show up with their own merchandise. On the larger pop-5+ worlds, it doesn't really matter: on a pop-5 the average is around 250 dTons, and the absolute worst roll requires 7 consecutive rolls of 1, so the issue can safely be ignored.

(For the more absurd shipping quantities - as when a pop-A world is shipping 3 to 8 10-60 dTon cargoes to some little Pop 2 world, I can present to the player that some of it is trans-shipping, some of it possibly the cargo they'll be shipping outbound on their very next trip, 'cause, 200 people exporting 96 dTons a week all on their own? Wow!).

 

[Supplement Four]

(For the more absurd shipping quantities - as when a pop-A world is shipping 3 to 8 10-60 dTon cargoes to some little Pop 2 world, I can present to the player that some of it is trans-shipping, some of it possibly the cargo they'll be shipping outbound on their very next trip, 'cause, 200 people exporting 96 dTons a week all on their own? Wow!).

Depends on what it is. Maybe those 200 people supervise some type of machinery. Maybe that's the reason for those 200 people to exist--they're all employees of some doing something on the world (terraforming, mining, gathering, etc.).

And, maybe what it is happens to be heavy and bulky, displacing 96 dTons.

Let's say that they are giant power core batteries, each displacing 2 dTons, and with the operation they've got going, they use four of the things every month. That means the load is replacement cores that will last those 200 people for a year. This includes double the normal use for the required spares because, without one, the atmo processor goes down and people die. So, four are used every month, and a year's worth is kept in storage for emergency.

Viola. 96 dTons for 200 people.

 

[McPerth]

See the in DonM rules (for MT) you hsould roll a difficult task (11+), modified by brocker, admin or streetwuse to sell you cargo in this 200 people world, so not always being able to sell it, and that TL effect vary according to the cargo (and for those holovideos, I'd see them as manufactured hardware and apply it as a minus).

 

[Carlobrand]

Depends on what it is. Maybe those 200 people supervise some type of machinery. Maybe that's the reason for those 200 people to exist--they're all employees of some doing something on the world (terraforming, mining, gathering, etc.).

And, maybe what it is happens to be heavy and bulky, displacing 96 dTons.

Let's say that they are giant power core batteries, each displacing 2 dTons, and with the operation they've got going, they use four of the things every month. That means the load is replacement cores that will last those 200 people for a year. This includes double the normal use for the required spares because, without one, the atmo processor goes down and people die. So, four are used every month, and a year's worth is kept in storage for emergency.

Viola. 96 dTons for 200 people.

??

Four 2 dTon units are used every month, for 96 dTons a year, yes?

Keep in mind that shipping is still Cr1000 per dTon. Whatever comes in or goes out has to justify that cost plus whatever other costs are involved before we reach break-even. Item-wise, that's not terrible. Person-wise, you're talking some pretty impressive per-person productivity rates to pay for that level of tonnage on any reasonably frequent basis.