Fuel Purification Plant processing time

[Carlobrand]

Hello all,

First my apologies for taking so long before realizing that instead of fitting the fuel purification processing time into the refueling time I was adding the time needed to convert raw gas into refined fuel. Thank you pendragonman, even if it took awhile to get through my thick skull, for getting me on, I hope, stating what I am mean.

My definition of refueling having a full load of refined fuel to run the power plant, jump drive and/or maneuver drive with the least amount of DMs to increase the chance of a malfunction of the J-Drive, M-drive, and/or Power plant.

Adventure 5 TCS does provide HG2 with additions and clarification to that books rules, however TCS does not say anywhere that HG2 or Book 2 Starships rules are suspended. The rules on the use of unrefined fuel are explicitly written stating that the power plant, jump drive, or/and M-drive have an increased chance of malfunctioning. Since TCS doesn't implement the rules my feeling is that the 2 hours and 20 minutes or 140 minutes to fill the tanks includes operating the fuel purification plants.

A properly functioning fuel purification plant process 1,000 tons of fuel per HG2. Using the 140 minutes from Adventure 5 TCS and giving a little leeway, okay making my math easier, I'm thinking that the properly sized plant takes 100 minutes to process the raw gas to refined fuel, which is 10 tons of raw fuel per minute.

Of course using 6, 8, or 10 hours as the time needed alters the tons of fuel processed.

...

Bearing in mind that we're taking the game as-is, and not trying to deal with such imponderables as whether the fusion plant's doing a proton-proton reaction or using deuterium and so on and so on, it looks fine to me. I suspect if we ever tried to tackle the imponderables, we'd have to completely rewrite the fuel purification plant rules.

A thousand tons in 140-ish minutes - calling it 100 minutes works since you're probably not scooping in the time you dive from space to the upper clouds nor in the time you lift from the atmosphere to orbit.

Could still apply the 6-hour bit; we'd just need to errata it into TCS, have it understood that a ship that tried to jump before the fuel needed had completed refinement was subject to the unrefined fuel jump DM. Only problem there is the purification plants are small enough and cheap enough that I'd be sorely tempted to throw a second one in to halve the time and allow a quick getaway - which is something the game rules don't really allow for. I personally think it's better to say it purifies the fuel as it comes aboard.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Carlobrand,

Bearing in mind that we're taking the game as-is, and not trying to deal with such imponderables as whether the fusion plant's doing a proton-proton reaction or using deuterium and so on and so on, it looks fine to me. I suspect if we ever tried to tackle the imponderables, we'd have to completely rewrite the fuel purification plant rules.

A thousand tons in 140-ish minutes - calling it 100 minutes works since you're probably not scooping in the time you dive from space to the upper clouds nor in the time you lift from the atmosphere to orbit.

Could still apply the 6-hour bit; we'd just need to errata it into TCS, have it understood that a ship that tried to jump before the fuel needed had completed refinement was subject to the unrefined fuel jump DM. Only problem there is the purification plants are small enough and cheap enough that I'd be sorely tempted to throw a second one in to halve the time and allow a quick getaway - which is something the game rules don't really allow for. I personally think it's better to say it purifies the fuel as it comes aboard.

The material I posted to about three hours to write with the number of times I changed stuff.

One of the versions I wrote over was going to use 6, 8 and/or 10 hours to give the fuel purification plant more time to work as a way account for the 2 hours 20 minutes to fill the tanks.

Then I decided to use just the time needed to fill the tanks and shoe horn the purification time in the middle.

Adding a second plant would cut the time down, but I was trying to keep the whole thing simple.

Part of my reason for trying to figure out the purification time was to submit the material as errata once I had a clearer idea of where I was going.

Everyone has been very helpful, yes pendragonman is included even though we disagree on non-topic issues. No harm no foul and we move on.

 

[aramis]

snrdg - a canon is axiomatically an official list of things that are part of a given set, usually a list of books.

In gaming, it almost always refers to to what the publisher (or their assignee) considers to have rules authority.

The canon list for CT is the list of what is on the CT CD - it's all "Canonical" - with a few exceptions. And those are easier to note than to list what is.

• HG1 was decanonized by HG2 - see the designer's notes for HG 2 in JTAS.
• CT 1E was decanonized by CT 2E - the 1981 printings - until last year, the 1977 books were not even available on the CD.
• The economic systems in both TCS and Striker were decanonized for the OTU, as of the time T20 was written - Hunter mentioned this in the playtest as a directive from Marc.
• Jump Torpedoes — mentioned in Adv 1, and from (IIRC) CT 1E 2nd or 3rd printing, and mentioned but not statted in the 1st printing — were decanonized as well.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening aramis,

I seem to be having a glitch with the COTI board today. When I clicked on the Quote option I got a blank page and this is the second time the issue has occurred. The first time was about two or three weeks ago with posting from McPerth.

Thank you for taking the time to provide more information on the subject of what is canon or more accurately the short list of what is no longer canon. Unfortunately, I have not been in a position to purchase any of the Traveller products be published on CD-ROM. I do have Classic Traveller FFE Books 1 through 8 and the two book set of for the Alien modules which were published in 2000.

What I am getting is that I should drop the matter of fuel processing time and not bother the FFE staff.

Consider the topic closed and if necessary purge the topic from the forum.

Again thank you for the education and my apologies for bring up the topic.

 

[Carlobrand]

snrdg - a canon is axiomatically an official list of things that are part of a given set, usually a list of books.

In gaming, it almost always refers to to what the publisher (or their assignee) considers to have rules authority.

The canon list for CT is the list of what is on the CT CD - it's all "Canonical" - with a few exceptions. And those are easier to note than to list what is.

• HG1 was decanonized by HG2 - see the designer's notes for HG 2 in JTAS.
• CT 1E was decanonized by CT 2E - the 1981 printings - until last year, the 1977 books were not even available on the CD.
• The economic systems in both TCS and Striker were decanonized for the OTU, as of the time T20 was written - Hunter mentioned this in the playtest as a directive from Marc.
• Jump Torpedoes — mentioned in Adv 1, and from (IIRC) CT 1E 2nd or 3rd printing, and mentioned but not statted in the 1st printing — were decanonized as well.

It should perhaps be explained at this point that there are in fact bodies of common practice that are not embodied in canon but are nonetheless very commonly seen in Traveller games - for example, the extension of some rule allowing for non-fatal survival roll failures in CT character generation, or rules for surviving a low berth survival roll failure. It should also be explained that because they are not canon, a player walking into a new group can have no assurance that the non-canon practices he is familiar with will be honored in the new setting.

On the other hand, because any gamemaster reserves the right to adjust or alter rules to serve his group's needs (presumably in advance and with the players' informed consent), it is also true that a player walking into a new group can have no assurance that the canon practices he is familiar with will be honored in the new setting - but the odds are a good deal better, and he at least has the right to expect that deviations from canon will be negotiated beforehand rather than sprung on him by surprise.

To clarify: the issue presently under discussion is not an issue of canon but rather an inference drawn from the lack of canon addressing it, resting on the gamemaster's authority to resolve issues left ambiguous by the game rules.

All of which is still moving this away from OP's clear request to focus on the subject at hand and deal with the definition of canon privately through the link he was gracious enough to provide -

- but since we've drifted away for the moment :

T20 is a different game. It is unusual, though not unheard of, for rules canon from one game to overwrite canon from a different game. CT has no economic canon besides the TCS and Striker systems - which were really intended for wargame campaign play, not as a description of the milieu, but which were drawn into that role because of the absence of an alternative. Can we expect the T20 economic rules to therefore be written into CT as errata? Perhaps as an add to one of the LBBs? Or is CT to be left without an economic system?

We now return control of your television set to you.:devil:

 

[aramis]

What I am getting is that I should drop the matter of fuel processing time and not bother the FFE staff.

Consider the topic closed and if necessary purge the topic from the forum.

Again thank you for the education and my apologies for bring up the topic.

Not at all - I'm just pointing out that the answer you need for your game may not be available in current OTU canon.

The problem with canon is multifold -
— it is primarily for writing in the OTU
— it has a few consistency issues
— the current OTU canon isn't the same as the CT one
— it doesn't matter a whit if you simply want a consistent answer for your gaming.

If you can accept the hybridizing decanonized and canon materials, then using HG1 is a highly viable solution, especially if you have a copy.

If not, then the canon from a later edition is as close to an "official" answer as exists without bothering Marc. So pick which edition you want to run with...
MT's 6 hours at "standard installation size" and is the closest to CT I've seen.

T20 has a nuanced and Book-5 compatible measure -
fuel. It takes a single fuel purification unit 20-TL hours to purify 200 Td.

TL	Tons per unit	Cost per unit	Hours per 200Td
8	10	40,000	12
9	9	38,000	11
10	8	36,000	10
11	7	34,000	9
12	6	32,000	8
13	5	30,000	7
14	4	28,000	6
15	3	30,000	5

[tc=4]Fuel Purification Plants[/tc]

Glitch reports belong in Citizens Information Center, not other threads. Loading glitches happen occasionally, usually at satellite handoffs.
I get them occasionally, too.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Carlobrand,

It should perhaps be explained at this point that there are in fact bodies of common practice that are not embodied in canon but are nonetheless very commonly seen in Traveller games - for example, the extension of some rule allowing for non-fatal survival roll failures in CT character generation, or rules for surviving a low berth survival roll failure. It should also be explained that because they are not canon, a player walking into a new group can have no assurance that the non-canon practices he is familiar with will be honored in the new setting.

On the other hand, because any gamemaster reserves the right to adjust or alter rules to serve his group's needs (presumably in advance and with the players' informed consent), it is also true that a player walking into a new group can have no assurance that the canon practices he is familiar with will be honored in the new setting - but the odds are a good deal better, and he at least has the right to expect that deviations from canon will be negotiated beforehand rather than sprung on him by surprise.

To clarify: the issue presently under discussion is not an issue of canon but rather an inference drawn from the lack of canon addressing it, resting on the gamemaster's authority to resolve issues left ambiguous by the game rules.

All of which is still moving this away from OP's clear request to focus on the subject at hand and deal with the definition of canon privately through the link he was gracious enough to provide -

- but since we've drifted away for the moment :

T20 is a different game. It is unusual, though not unheard of, for rules canon from one game to overwrite canon from a different game. CT has no economic canon besides the TCS and Striker systems - which were really intended for wargame campaign play, not as a description of the milieu, but which were drawn into that role because of the absence of an alternative. Can we expect the T20 economic rules to therefore be written into CT as errata? Perhaps as an add to one of the LBBs? Or is CT to be left without an economic system?

We now return control of your television set to you.:devil:

Thank you and aramis for furthering my education and clarification of the off topic comments that pendragonmen brought to my topic post. As always I appreciate the information given.

 

[rancke]

It should perhaps be explained at this point that there are in fact bodies of common practice that are not embodied in canon but are nonetheless very commonly seen in Traveller games - for example, the extension of some rule allowing for non-fatal survival roll failures in CT character generation, or rules for surviving a low berth survival roll failure. It should also be explained that because they are not canon, a player walking into a new group can have no assurance that the non-canon practices he is familiar with will be honored in the new setting.

It should also be mentioned in this connection that because CT was replaced (but not necessarily superceded) a generation ago, at lot of present-day canon is not part of CT canon. Personally, I consider anything published about the Traveller universe subsequent to CT that doesn't specifically contradict anything in CT as valid CT information (the CT universe alone being so poorly documented), likewise any rules that can be retrofitted to CT without causing problems, but not everybody agrees with that.


Hans

 

[Vargas]

It should perhaps be explained at this point that there are in fact bodies of common practice that are not embodied in canon but are nonetheless very commonly seen in Traveller games - for example, the extension of some rule allowing for non-fatal survival roll failures in CT character generation . . .

IMO, the optional survival rule in the 1981 edition of Book 1, Page 10, would be canon and not common practice.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello aramis,

Thank you again for providing clarification, and another apology for heading off in the wrong direction. Not an uncommon event with me either as my time here has shown on more than one occasion.

Not at all - I'm just pointing out that the answer you need for your game may not be available in current OTU canon.

The problem with canon is multifold -
— it is primarily for writing in the OTU
— it has a few consistency issues
— the current OTU canon isn't the same as the CT one
— it doesn't matter a whit if you simply want a consistent answer for your gaming.

If you can accept the hybridizing decanonized and canon materials, then using HG1 is a highly viable solution, especially if you have a copy.

I usually try to stick with the rules as written from the latest version I have, which are from my FFE series, with the exception of HG2 with is the 15th printing and the one in FFE 001 is the 12th. I have hybridized, though not from the 1970 LBB, from MT and TNE.

If not, then the canon from a later edition is as close to an "official" answer as exists without bothering Marc. So pick which edition you want to run with...
MT's 6 hours at "standard installation size" and is the closest to CT I've seen.

MT's 6 hours started as my bench mark until it was pointed out that filling the tanks by TCS 2 in hours 20 minutes, MT Imperial Encyclopedia and TNE the process takes approximately 10 hours are defined as refueling.

Where this discussion started falling apart, and getting off topic, was my failure to clearly state that my idea of refueling by other sources than a starport consisted of skimming a gas giant/suck up water/melt ice to fill the tanks and convert the raw product into refined fuel to minimize the DMs that cause Engineering systems malfunctions.

T20 has a nuanced and Book-5 compatible measure -
fuel. It takes a single fuel purification unit 20-TL hours to purify 200 Td.

TL	Tons per unit	Cost per unit	Hours per 200Td
8	10	40,000	12
9	9	38,000	11
10	8	36,000	10
11	7	34,000	9
12	6	32,000	8
13	5	30,000	7
14	4	28,000	6
15	3	30,000	5

[tc=4]Fuel Purification Plants[/tc]

I have T20, GT, and MgT, which I have cross checked with CT, MT, and TNE. T4, unfortunately, I have barely looked and that was limited to helping Donald McKinney on specified errata.

Glitch reports belong in Citizens Information Center, not other threads. Loading glitches happen occasionally, usually at satellite handoffs.
I get them occasionally, too.

The first part of glitch comment was more about mentioning the reason for not quoting the post in question. Then I added the bit about having had the same thing happen, which I should have realized altered from a comment to a report. Good thing I'm not playing baseball because my stat for errors would be in the record books.

Thank you again for your time and efforts to educate this thick headed lout.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning rancke,

It should also be mentioned in this connection that because CT was replaced (but not necessarily superceded) a generation ago, at lot of present-day canon is not part of CT canon. Personally, I consider anything published about the Traveller universe subsequent to CT that doesn't specifically contradict anything in CT as valid CT information (the CT universe alone being so poorly documented), likewise any rules that can be retrofitted to CT without causing problems, but not everybody agrees with that.


Hans

Looks like I lean more towards your view point. Thanks Hans for the input.

 

[snrdg082102]

Late afternoon PDT,

I found more information of the time needed for Book 2 Starship's and Book 5 HG2 hulls to fill their fuel tanks by skimming a gas giant in the Consolidated CT Errata on page 8 for an entry in CT Book 3 page 5.

WORLDS AND ADVENTURES (Book 3, 1981 edition)
Page 5, Gas Giants (clarification): This section notes that refueling in this fashion (skimming from a gas giant) generally requires a week. This should be considered to include travel time to and from the gas giant. The actual skimming procedure requires eight hours.

Non-military, quasi-military, and military hulls prior to CT Adventure 5 TCS require 8 hours to fill their tanks.

Hulls without fuel purification plants would be considered refueled in 8 hours per CT Book 3 errata in my opinion.

Hulls with fuel purification plants when used, again in my fuzzy little mind, take 8 hours to fill their tanks plus the time needed to run the raw gas through the fuel purification plant to produce refined fuel at the end of which the hulls would considered refueled.

Going with MT the time needed to convert the raw gas is 6 hours and is probably conducted during transit from the gas giant to either a world or outbound jump point.

Adventure 5 TCS alters the time needed to skim a gas giant to 140 minutes during time of war. During peace time operations the military follows the 8 hours to fill the fuel tanks by skimming through the atmosphere of a gas giant. Of course in peace time there are exceptions like during war games or in any emergency.

Does the above sound better?

 

[Vladika]

I think the "war vs peace" sounds pretty good. In times of necessity, corners often must be cut.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Vladika,

I think the "war vs peace" sounds pretty good. In times of necessity, corners often must be cut.

Adventure 5 TCS supplied the war and peace connection. To build the fleet you have to have the revenue, which TCS calculates based on times of peace and war.

A. Non-military starships gas giant refueling time:

Without purification plants - 8 hours skimming

With purification plants - 8 hours skimming + 6 hours fuel purification = 14 hours.

B. Military and quasi-military starships
Peace time:
The same as conducted by non-military starships

War time:
Without purification plants - 2 hours 20 minutes skimming
With purification plants - 2 hours 20 minutes skimming + 6 hours fuel purification = 8 hours 20 minutes.

Adventure 5 TCS allows warships to transfer fuel between ships in 40 minutes. I feel that the fuel transfer is standard practice in both time of peace or war.

Which, for military/quasi-military starships means the ship receiving the fuel would be refueled in 40 minutes.

I'm wondering if non-military starships would have the same ability to transfer fuel as warships.

 

[vegas]

I'm happy to bump into this old thread as it does a lot of leg work for me in sussing out all the different sources of information on refueling & fuel purification. I thought I'd add a couple more CT details that bear on this topic that I have been struggling with.

* Unrefined fuel costs 100 Cr/dT, and refined fuel costs a 5X more, or 400 Cr/dT premium over unrefined. (B2 p7.)

* Interest rates are very low. Starship loans can be had for less than 5% interest. (B2 p7, implied by loan payments of 1/240 of principal per month).

In order to justify that huge premium for refined fuel, then either fuel purification plants have to be very expensive, or fuel purifying has to take a long time, or some combination of both. Unfortunately, with the costs of fuel purification equipment given in HG, then the time required has to be absurdly long.

I'm not sure how to handle this in MTU. Probably just squashing the cost premium for refined fuel is the easiest thing to do. Otherwise something like a 10x reduction in the refined fuel premium (to 40 Cr/dT) and a 10x increase in fuel purification equipment cost would be roughly consistent with a 1 week fuel purification time. Not sure which is the better way to go.

 

[kilemall]

I'm happy to bump into this old thread as it does a lot of leg work for me in sussing out all the different sources of information on refueling & fuel purification. I thought I'd add a couple more CT details that bear on this topic that I have been struggling with.

* Unrefined fuel costs 100 Cr/dT, and refined fuel costs a 5X more, or 400 Cr/dT premium over unrefined. (B2 p7.)

* Interest rates are very low. Starship loans can be had for less than 5% interest. (B2 p7, implied by loan payments of 1/240 of principal per month).

In order to justify that huge premium for refined fuel, then either fuel purification plants have to be very expensive, or fuel purifying has to take a long time, or some combination of both. Unfortunately, with the costs of fuel purification equipment given in HG, then the time required has to be absurdly long.

I'm not sure how to handle this in MTU. Probably just squashing the cost premium for refined fuel is the easiest thing to do. Otherwise something like a 10x reduction in the refined fuel premium (to 40 Cr/dT) and a 10x increase in fuel purification equipment cost would be roughly consistent with a 1 week fuel purification time. Not sure which is the better way to go.

I have been thinking of going to a 10/100x cost and size rule for fuel purification plants. That way only very large fleets with dedicated tanker/refiners or starports/bases/megacorps facilities that can lay out that kind of cash have this capacity, which would also explain the fuel price differential.

One option to consider is going the other way, running with the CT rule about scouts and military ships not misjumping with unrefined fuel.

In that case the purification plant is moot for fleet actions, and something is different about those drives. Could be an expense built into their cost, or a 'military secret' that if the players can get, they can apply to their ship for the same benefit (at risk if the military ever finds out about it).

 

[vegas]

Personally I am loath to change the size of fuel purifiers (or anything else) because one goal in my HRs is to be able to reuse canonical or other players' ship designs without a lot of rework. But you are right, I should really consider a 100X+ increase in fuel purifier cost. That will start to ripple through into maintenance cost though if I make the cost of any component get too out of whack. (I already included some extremely high fuel purifier maint. costs in my first pass calculation.) Definitely something to think about though.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello vegas and kilemall,

I am glad that the thread has been of some use to you and thank you for reminding me of the post.

 

[Whipsnade]

Could be an expense built into their cost, or a 'military secret' that if the players can get, they can apply to their ship for the same benefit (at risk if the military ever finds out about it).

IMTU, that military "secret" is additional manning operating the equipment under verbatim compliance and provided with constant training while performing regular planned maintenance with quality parts.

In other words, the "secret" is MONEY.

The secret is something commercial lines don't want to spend and PCs rarely have enough of.

There's no need to invent a sci-fi "technological" explanation involving frommitz boards, smoke shifters, or other mcguffins when there's a real world sociological one.

 

[kilemall]

IMTU, that military "secret" is additional manning operating the equipment under verbatim compliance and provided with constant training while performing regular planned maintenance with quality parts.

In other words, the "secret" is MONEY.

The secret is something commercial lines don't want to spend and PCs rarely have enough of.

There's no need to invent a sci-fi "technological" explanation involving frommitz boards, smoke shifters, or other mcguffins when there's a real world sociological one.

<Shrug> I indicated money as an option, and secrets as another. Pulp sci-fi, remember? A potential plot point.

Luke Skywalker: [on first seeing the Millenium Falcon] What a piece of junk!
Han Solo: She'll make point five past lightspeed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself.

Like that.

To the extent I would want to address the topic, I would probably go the other way- CT drives do unrefined fuel, HG drives need refined. Mass production and proven designs allow for a 'lower' operating cost and rough frontier reliability for the little ACS, big fleet ships and high performance equipment require 'unleaded'.