Gauss Weapons - Silent and Deadly

[far-trader]

Just a small clarification re recoil in general. Most recoil, actual and felt, won't be a big problem when firing a weapon in proper conditions. The issue I have is that recoil in Traveller is always about the effects of the weapon on the user when firing in zero-g and then any real or felt recoil is going to have a significant effect on the user. That's why the whole gauss weapons are zero recoil bugs me a little.

I have no problem with saying that any high tech weapon of sufficient size can be equipped with an advanced gravitic recoil damper to negate any real or felt recoil. In fact I'd expect it for space troopers, but it would be overkill for most ground troops.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Aye, in zero g, anything attached to the force of a gauss round is going to go in the opposite direction.

I'm not techie, but isn't contra-grav (like the kind used for a grav harness, etc.) only useful in a gravity well? In space, at zero-g, that kind of tech should be as useless as an air/raft. What is the technology that allows for compact, weapon-sized gravatic recoil compensation in such an environment?

Er... maybe I'm getting beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[sablewyvern]

I assume zero-g recoil compensaton, if it exists, would involve some sort of mechanism whereby an equivalent force is applied in the opposite direction to that which is imparted by firing (much like modern recoilless weapons, minus the annoying back-blast).

Exactly how this could be practically achieved, I have no idea.

As for zero-g firearms such as snub and accellerator weapons, they simply have a much lower muzzle velocity than conventional weapons, reducing but not eliminating the effects of recoil. Presumably, minor venting of reaction mass could counteract such recoil.

 

[atpollard]

As for zero-g firearms such as snub and accellerator weapons, they simply have a much lower muzzle velocity than conventional weapons, reducing but not eliminating the effects of recoil. Presumably, minor venting of reaction mass could counteract such recoil.

I believe that 'snub' weapons use a lower velocity to reduce recoil, while accellerator weapons are mini rockets (like experimental gyroc/gyrojet weapons of the 1970's) which have virtually no recoil since the 'bang' happens outside of the gun.

 

[sablewyvern]

I believe that 'snub' weapons use a lower velocity to reduce recoil, while accellerator weapons are mini rockets (like experimental gyroc/gyrojet weapons of the 1970's) which have virtually no recoil since the 'bang' happens outside of the gun.

I'm pretty sure that snub revolvers and autosnubs are also described as gyrojet weapons (althought not using that precise term). I'm open to correction on that, however.

 

[aramis]

I'm pretty sure that snub revolvers and autosnubs are also described as gyrojet weapons (althought not using that precise term). I'm open to correction on that, however.

The snub pistol is a low velocity revolver for use on shipboard and in a zero-G environment. It fires 10 mm, 7 gram bullets at velocities if 100-150 meters per second.

(it then lists ammo masses that make sense only if the round is 5g completed...)

 

[sablewyvern]

Hmmm...

Don't know where I got that impression, then. I don't think TNE (which is my primary exposure to Traveller) actually describes snub weapons anywhere in the main rule book, but I've thought of snubs as accelerator pistols for some time now... Might just have been the similar muzzle velocities.

 

[Foxroe]

Some good info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun (I particularly like the EM-15 link)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bfoBlKerN0&feature=related (recoil video)

…and plenty of other stuff if one Googles “gauss gun” or “coilgun”.

Supersonics aside, I imagine that the gun itself would be no louder than a “silenced” pistol/rifle; however, I imagine that there would be quite a bit of noise on the receiving end when the round slows from ~3x the speed of sound to a dead stop (no pun intended)! Not to mention the screaming (“Holy Moses, that stings!”)… :smirk:

- Fox

 

[atpollard]

Supersonics aside, I imagine that the gun itself would be no louder than a “silenced” pistol/rifle; however, I imagine that there would be quite a bit of noise on the receiving end when the round slows from ~3x the speed of sound to a dead stop (no pun intended)! Not to mention the screaming (“Holy Moses, that stings!”)…

Small caliber, high velocity, armor piercing rounds often punch through soft tissue leaving a small hole and causing very little damage. Gauss weapons would seem vulnerable to similar 'overkill' problems.

 

[Foxroe]

Hey, tell that to the aluminum can in that video!

- Fox

 

[Renaissance Man]

Small caliber, high velocity, armor piercing rounds often punch through soft tissue leaving a small hole and causing very little damage. Gauss weapons would seem vulnerable to similar 'overkill' problems.

Maybe the ammunition is designed to splat, fragment or tumble on impact...

Maybe it has smart fusing and will explode when it gets a taste of body heat and moisture...

 

[BlackBat242]

Hey, tell that to the aluminum can in that video!

- Fox

Aluminum is a metal... and cannot compress to absorb the energy of the hit... nor to allow the round to pass through.

Flesh can (and does) compress, allowing the round to pass through with far less damage than any metal target suffers.

 

[atpollard]

Maybe the ammunition is designed to splat, fragment or tumble on impact... Maybe it has smart fusing and will explode when it gets a taste of body heat and moisture...

It is more of 'the right tool for the right job' kind of issue – a fundamental trade-off:

Any small high-velocity round will be better at PENETRATION than an equivalent large low-velocity round (higher Momentum for the same total Kinetic Energy), which means that it will tend to punch through soft targets rather than completely transferring the Energy. Any round designed to be more effective against soft targets will be more easily stopped by armor.



I was trying to point out that since GAUSS weapons, by their nature, are designed to shoot smaller rounds at faster speeds than conventional FIREARMS, the natural trade-off will be more extreme in Gauss Weapons:

The Gauss ‘Armor Piercing’ round should be More Effective against hard targets than a conventional ‘Armor Piercing’ round, but then the Gauss ‘Armor Piercing’ round will be Less Effective against soft targets than a conventional ‘Armor Piercing’ round is against soft targets.

The Gauss ‘Soft Target’ round could be As Effective against soft targets as a conventional ‘Soft Target’ round, but then the Gauss ‘Soft Target’ round will be Less Effective against hard targets than a conventional ‘Soft Target’ round is against hard targets.

Does that make any sense?

 

[Johnny_BoomBoom]

Maybe the ammunition is designed to splat, fragment or tumble on impact...

Maybe it has smart fusing and will explode when it gets a taste of body heat and moisture...

Small caliber lightweight rounds (4mm 4 gram?) are very likely to tumble on impact - today's .223 NATO rounds exhibit this behaviour. Helps impart all of the momentum and kinetic energy into the target. It also makes the wound path harder to follow when trying to remove the offending projectile!

 

[Renaissance Man]

The Gauss ‘Soft Target’ round could be As Effective against soft targets as a conventional ‘Soft Target’ round, but then the Gauss ‘Soft Target’ round will be Less Effective against hard targets than a conventional ‘Soft Target’ round is against hard targets.

Does that make any sense?

Sure does. Specialized rounds are usually a trade-off. Can't shoot through your cake and eat it too.

And I agree with you that a gauss round is always going to be, on an individual basis, a better armour piercing round than anything else. A weapon that is somewhat specialized from the outset.

I'd suspect that the Gauss gun's fast ROF (and accompanying magazine capacity) and more manageable recoil make up for any drop in the kill ratio for a single round. Simply speaking - the gun turns things into swiss cheese.

And yet their might still be ways around the traditional trade-off. Take a standard gauss round - crystaliron maybe with a ferrous superdense lattice. plenty of penetration potential there. Shaped to reduce air friction (less sound, more speed), with an explosive centre. The explosive can be individually timed to go off when the round has penetrated a target as it moves into the coil chamber - based on data from the guns target-acquisition software. Or it can merely be timed to go off when it senses levels of heat and moisture commensurate with the human body.

They call it smart fusing, and it's already being put into use with rifle launched grenades. We can extrapolate a few uses for smaller munitions, even the 4mm gauss needle, for the far future. Yes, perhaps we can have the best of both worlds.

 

[Foxroe]

Aluminum is a metal... and cannot compress to absorb the energy of the hit... nor to allow the round to pass through.

Flesh can (and does) compress, allowing the round to pass through with far less damage than any metal target suffers.

Yeash, tough crowd! [tugs at collar]

- Fox

 

[atpollard]

They call it smart fusing, and it's already being put into use with rifle launched grenades. We can extrapolate a few uses for smaller munitions, even the 4mm gauss needle, for the far future. Yes, perhaps we can have the best of both worlds.

... But anything that you can install in a 4mm Gauss round should be 'bigger and better' in a 5.56mm (or 7.62mm, or 9mm conventional round). Think of all the extra sensors and explosive core you can fit in a bigger bullet. [Where did I put that 12 gauge slug?]

 

[Icosahedron]

IIRC Gauss rounds are described (Book 1 or 4?) as having a dense armour-piercing core surrounded by a soft jacket. Presumably this is precisely to reduce the shoot-through problem.

I tend to limit the insertion of explosives, electronics, etc. to 10mm+. It gives the old snub pistol a raison d'etre outside of ZG. You want a HE, tranq or tazer round, don't look for it in 5.5mm!

And I have all SORTS of goodies available for those humble shotguns...

One other possibility is to make bullets of memory metal - once they are sitting still in this warm, wet meat cocoon, they begin to revert to their original shape; with all the spikes and barbs...