Grrr... trade

[Psion]

So I ran a Mongoose Traveller thing at the NC Gameday yesterday. It went well, with one glaring exception:

The time taken by the more numbers obsessed players calculating profits and dividends.

I put together spreadsheet to let me get the freight, passengers, and available spec goods quickly. But nonetheless, calculating the money, dividing it up into "just the right shares", etc., proved to be a huge distraction.

I was thinking of really making some "shorthand" trade rules. Any have/try anything like that?

 

[rust]

But nonetheless, calculating the money, dividing it up into "just the right shares", etc., proved to be a huge distraction.

This is the kind of activities I tell the players to let their characters do "at
the end of the month", the right time for proper bookkeeping, which is al-
ways after the adventure, never during it.

"Shorthand trade rules" might help somewhat, but in my experience they do
not really solve the problem with players interested in bookkeeping during a
game session. Such players manage to spend an hour on a "shorthand sys-
tem", too, unless told otherwise.

 

[Psion]

Well, for the purposes of con games, I came up with a fairly simple solution:

Have an NPC purser, do all the money calcs behind the scenes. Players wasted the most time doing calculations that really don't matter (like "what's my share"). Even pay proved useless, because players never bought anything after the first planet.

 

[fiat_knox]

I agree. Players should bluebook their profits.

I also take a loose approach to consistency where it would serve to drive the plot forward. As in, "Remember those profits you made on Candleworld? The profits your captain thought would make a nice stake to stump up on Casinoworld, the world you just visited? Well, the money and the Captain went to Casinoworld, but the money thought it such a lovely place that it decided to stay there.

"All of it. You're broke again. But there's a Patron walking up to you in the bar you're sitting in, and ..."

 

[mhensley]

I've been experiencing the same problems with my game as well. It takes too long to figure this stuff out in a session and is boring to the players who aren't really interested in it. I've been thinking of moving them away from a merchant campaign to a more merc one just because of this issue.

 

[Original_Carl]

Don't give up on Trade yet. My group and I are huge fans of trading.

I was a bit slow coming up with cargo sheets at first. I built a tool* that does it for me. Excel or other spreadsheet should be about all you need. A little prep goes a long way toward making trade smoother.

For your subsector, generate the standard cargo tables for each world there. Standard goods are determined by world type, so you can have the lists of these preparted ahead of time. This step alone will save you tons of time.

As you use the trade system, you'll get faster. My group did. We have it down to about 2 minutes from Broker check to purchase/sale price on the goods.

Finally, I don't keep any records. That's up to the players. The Broker is the one who handles the cash transactions. The Captain keeps the books. It's not up to the Referee to decide how much money each person on the crew gets. It's their money. Make them keep track of it. If they seem to have too much money, then throw pirates at them until that problem takes care of itself.

* Please don't ask for my tool. The EULA from Mongoose specifically prohibits me (or anyone else)even giving away software pertaining to MGT. I like what they've done with the game and I don't need them wasting time attempting to sue me for sending you a spreadsheet. It's not personal.

 

[Psion]

Don't give up on Trade yet. My group and I are huge fans of trading.

I was a bit slow coming up with cargo sheets at first. I built a tool* that does it for me. Excel or other spreadsheet should be about all you need. A little prep goes a long way toward making trade smoother.

As I mentioned in the OP, I was using an excel speadsheet. The problem came when the players wanted to add some additional divvying/accounting.

As mentioned in my Actual Play, I overcame this in my home game by jotting down the figures and saving the totaling for the end of the game.

But for one-offs, I'm afraid I'm ready to write off trader scenarios.

Finally, I don't keep any records. That's up to the players. The Broker is the one who handles the cash transactions. The Captain keeps the books. It's not up to the Referee to decide how much money each person on the crew gets. It's their money. Make them keep track of it.

THAT is, IME, exactly where the problem lay. They wanted to do it during the game, which slowed thing down. I'd much rather take control of the pacing.

 

[Icosahedron]

* Please don't ask for my tool. The EULA from Mongoose specifically prohibits me (or anyone else)even giving away software pertaining to MGT. I like what they've done with the game and I don't need them wasting time attempting to sue me for sending you a spreadsheet. It's not personal.

[Thread Hijack] [soapbox] Now this is the sort of thing that p***es me off about copyright - the way it works against the community. Ok, fair enough, if Mongoose are planning to produce an ACCURATE spreadsheet for this purpose sometime SOON, that's ok - I'm all for it, they deserve to profit from their product and I wouldn't hesitate to back them.

BUT...

If they have no intention of producing one, or it's so far down the priority list that we may have to wait several years for a typo-strewn unworkable mess, then I'd like to see them figure something out with the guy so that we, the Traveller community, get a working spreadsheet today, rather than have them writing a gagging clause to 'safeguard' profits they're never going to make.

And whilst I'm up here, I'd also like to see a 'Traveller Free Press', a not-for-profit organisation that can publish all out-of-print Traveller materials and donate the proceeds to charity. It's about time the community had some say in all this. :frankie:

Copyright - use it or lose it. Publish or perish. Power to the people. [/soapbox]

And yeah, I know that despite the no-excuse availability of computer-aided print-on-demand publishing today, it's not gonna happen - and that p***es me off even more. The law is a century behind the technology - as usual.

Of course, Original Carl (and/or anyone else) could always approach Mongoose and see if such a deal can be struck... [/Thread Hijack]

 

[CosmicGamer]

I don't think certain items, like character generation or totally automating trade in a worksheet, would be looked upon favorably. If too much of this gets out to the public it might reduce sales of the product but...

If you have a cargo spreadsheet that doesn't determine available cargo and just lists whats in your cargo hold allowing you to enter cargo info, buy prices, sell prices, and whatnot and then totaling up your profits...

Mongoose, IMO, has appeared to be accommodating. My guess is that if you have something worthwhile and want to provide it to the Traveller community (without trying to charge for it) something could be worked out, eventually.

 

[Original_Carl]

Sorry for chopping up your post, Psion. I have a few responses for you.

As I mentioned in the OP, I was using an excel speadsheet. The problem came when the players wanted to add some additional divvying/accounting.

Make them handle the spreadsheet. That's what I do. They can add all the divvying and accounting they want. If that's what they want to do during the game, then that's what they do. If I get bored, I throw pirates at them when they get to the 100-diameter limit, or have an Enemy or Rival look them up in the Spaceport.

As mentioned in my Actual Play, I overcame this in my home game by jotting down the figures and saving the totaling for the end of the game.

That's a good plan as long as the session ends at the end of a trade run. Otherwise you're delaying payment of possibly mission-critical funds and that's not really fair.

My group figures out what they want (ship upgrades, for example) then makes a plan to get the money (trade and/or patron-driven missions). Sometimes to accomplish a mission they need more capital so they'll try a little speculative trade to raise it. Everyone's game is different, it seems.

Alternately, you could limit your group to Freight and Passenger trade only. Cutting speculative trade out entirely wouldn't cripple a primarily mission-driven game and Freight and Passengers would certainly help defray the cost of running a starship.

THAT is, IME, exactly where the problem lay. They wanted to do it during the game, which slowed things down. I'd much rather take control of the pacing.

I think that the players should set the pace of the game. If they want to spend the whole session engaging in speculative trade, then by all means let them. There is plenty of adventure out there for dedicated traders. As I said previously, if they're really successful and you think they have too much money then throw pirates at them until they're appropriately broke. Have a patron/ally contact one of them and insist that they drop everything they're doing to come and help if you have a mission you really want to run.

That said, every game is different. I tried to control the pace of my games in the past and although I got what I wanted, my players weren't happy and our game suffered for it. That's where my (unsolicited) advice is coming from.

 

[Psion]

Make them handle the spreadsheet. That's what I do.

Not really an option, and even were it, I don't see how that would have helped. I have my spreadsheet, I'm familiar with it, and it resides on my laptop where adventures, my gateway domain world spreadsheet, rulebooks, etc., reside. Not really practical to let a player use it during play.

What did help when I ran the home game (contrasting with the gameday game) was taking total charge of accounting during the game, and tabling any calculations that weren't relevant during the game.

If there was one player who liked little accounting activities and was happy to do it while the rest of the group is still enjoying the game, that would be one thing. I can't guarantee such a situation in gameday games and that situation is pretty much absent in my home game.

I think that the players should set the pace of the game. If they want to spend the whole session engaging in speculative trade, then by all means let them.

In this context, I have to disagree.

In the gameday game, there were two players that were basically hijacking the session for an activity that
1) only they were deriving any enjoyment from. Everyone else was bored stiff as the game came to a halt while they were playing papers & paychecks.
2) in the case of the one-shot, it really didn't matter, as it was a one shot. (One of the players that insisted on divvying things up didn't even bother to keep the character sheet.) Nitpicking on who gets how much was largely irrelevant. If there was anything they needed to buy, they could have made the decision to dip into the ship's fund.

It's the GMs job to ensure that everyone at the table is having fun. I've never been in a group in which the whole table was interested in sorting piles of change.

 

[far-trader]

:devil:

...In the gameday game, there were two players that were basically hijacking the session for an activity that only they were deriving any enjoyment from. Everyone else was bored stiff as the game came to a halt while they were playing papers & paychecks.

Sounds like an opportunity for the "Jayne" of the group to indulge in a little "let's do crime" role-playing moment...

...after waiting a reasonable time Jayne's player speaks OOC "Are you two still working that out? Come on, I want to play."

Accountants OOC (mumbling as they are briefly distracted) "Yes, nothing happens until we have the shares properly distributed and noted." (or whatever... )

Jayne's player pointedly looks at the ref and clears his throat "Jayne starts talking to Vera..."

Jayne's player IC "I know I know, you thought you were going to get some action tonight. Me too. Know what, we are..." (flashing an evil grin).

Jayne's player to ref "Jayne walks in on those two in the middle of their business (accountant's charaters) and clicks the safety off Vera..."

Jayne's player IC "No fast moves or I'll let Vera do the talking. Pack up all the loot and hand it over and maybe I can keep Vera quiet. I might even let you have it back later. No promises though, she really wants to sing tonight and times a wastin. Time is money right? Well you're wasting my time, so I think I get your money right? If you'd like to suggest someone else she might sing for I might forget you owe me but we'd best be moving. NOW!"

...but then I'm feeling just a little evil at the moment :smirk:

If I was feeling really evil I'd have just tossed a grenade in the room and shut the door again :devil:

 

[Original_Carl]

What did help when I ran the home game (contrasting with the gameday game) was taking total charge of accounting during the game, and tabling any calculations that weren't relevant during the game.

Woof. That's a lot of work you've taken on. I hope your players pay you well. As I said though, every game is different. I would never take on player-level accounting. If they don't feel like keeping track of it themselves or they're just bad at it, then no trade for them. They can go shoot stuff for money.

Here's how I handle speculative trade:

Player: What cargoes are available?
Me: Standard for world type plus...roll a d6.
Player: 2.
Me: 2 other things. Roll d66.
Player: 25.
Me: Sailboat Fuel. Roll d66 again.
Player: 32.
Me: Board Stretchers. What now?
Player: What was the first thing again?
Me: You didn't write it down? You must have lost that supplier's information. Too bad.
Player: Dang it! OK, how much for the board stretchers?
Me: Roll 2d6.
Player: 10.
Me: 1000 tons at (makes player roll Broker stuff for purchase price) <Credits> per ton.
Player: OK...(discusses with players what to do) we're going to buy some.
Me: How much?
Player: How much was it again?
Me: Oh no! Apparently, a bug in your computer's database program has caused you to lose all your pricing data before you had a chance to close the transaction! No more speculative cargo until next week, I'm afraid. You spent 8 days finding two suppliers. What is the rest of the crew doing during that time?

In the gameday game, there were two players that were basically hijacking the session for an activity that

Your game and your style are a lot different from mine. Which is good because I can learn from you. I hope that you can learn from me, too. When I get players like this, I set a time limit for them. "You two have been dominating this session for the past <TimeSpan>. You have 15 minutes to wrap all this up. Everyone else take a break." And when 15 minutes is up, they're done.

Alternately, you could try something like, "OK, everyone else, you've been sitting here patiently for <TimeSpan> while Scrooge and Marley here count Imperial Credits in the crew lounge. What are the rest of you doing?" Leave the money-changers out of the session for a while. See what the rest of the group wants to do and let them do that.

It's the GMs job to ensure that everyone at the table is having fun. I've never been in a group in which the whole table was interested in sorting piles of change.

I disagree with this. I think the Referee's job is to ensure that the game is fair and organized. Fun is up to the individual player. If they aren't capable of driving their own fun, then they have deeper problems than a tabletop RPG can fix.

That said, you can't make someone else happy. You just can't. It comes from within them. Fun is the same way. Making yourself responsible for others having fun will drive you crazy. You can cook the food and set the table, but you can't make them eat. They have to do that themselves.

Good luck, Psion. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

 

[Psion]

Woof. That's a lot of work you've taken on. I hope your players pay you well.

You yourself were touting the power of the spreadsheet. All I really do is jot down, for each jump:

- the length of the jump
- tons of freight hauled
- number of high, middle, and low passengers.

Then, at the end of the game, my spreadsheet translates that into credits, and I bounce it against the cost during that period (also on the spreadsheet.)

The only adding I do is adding up the credit figures for the jumps (and generally, again, I let excel do the math by punching it in manually, though if I spent the time I could probably automate that as well.) And I don't do any divvying up or personal equipment purchases; that's up to them.

My spreadsheet does automate all available cargoes, freights, and passengers, so no sweat there. What it doesn't do (because it was proving to be to much of a forumula-composing task) is look up the appropriate modifiers for the current world. But I have some ideas how that could work if I put my mind to it.

(EDIT: I should hasten to mention that this is what I do NOW; when I ran the game that prompted this gripe, I was less "forewarned and forearmed" than I am now. I DID have the spreadsheet then, but the philosophy of how to address the players regarding accounting wasn't there.)

I think the Referee's job is to ensure that the game is fair and organized.

Sure. But I would include in "fair" the principle it's unfair to allow the minority to consume mutual table time on tasks that aren't pressing and only serves to appease a nit of one or two players. But then, you've given a good example how to deal with this; I'm not really saying anything different here.

Fun is up to the individual player. If they aren't capable of driving their own fun, then they have deeper problems than a tabletop RPG can fix. That said, you can't make someone else happy. You just can't. It comes from within them. Fun is the same way. Making yourself responsible for others having fun will drive you crazy. You can cook the food and set the table, but you can't make them eat.

You can cook something you know they all like.

And to relate this back to the topic at hand: I've run con games for a few years, using a variety of systems. It's my experience that you can strive to fill the time with activities that most players are going to derive some enjoyment from, and have the opportunity to contribute to.

Perhaps more so than home games (which might have more frequent opportunities for socializing, waiting for lagging players, dinner breaks, etc., and which you can usually continue next week), there's a pressure to make the session time count. In the course of such games, I'm found a few activities that prove to be time wasters and are best to minimize or put off entirely:
- character generation
- shopping/gear aquisition
- trade/accounting

I've been a little drug off the topic by a little GMing style dispute, but what I was sort of alluding to briefly above is simply this: the classic free trader campaign is my preferred home game model, as it lends itself to a lot of variety, and has the classic "moneymaking" carrot to keep the players going. However, the traveller universe is big enough, and there are plenty of other valid adventure models that can happen in the OTU: mercenary games, espionage games, fleet action, scout explorations, etc. Given that I repeatedly find the presence of trade to be a disruption, if it might be best to save the free trader style game for the home game.