Hard Science, I Don't Understand

[rust]

Or, I should say, did hold true for Traveller until Mongoose stepped in and started changing the universe and mythos.

Ah, well, not quite so.

TNE's Fire, Fusion & Steel had Cold Fusion, Dean Drives, Psionic Transfer Dri-
ves and a couple of other options that are at least as far away from hard
science as any of the options of Mongoose Traveller, and I know quite a
lot of similar stuff from other versions of Traveller.
Most Traveller authors have attempted to stay close to the original idea of
hard science and Golden Age SF feeling, but some have failed spectacular-
ly - and long before Mongoose ever thought of publishing Traveller.

 

[lucasdigital]

Ah, well, not quite so.
Most Traveller authors have attempted to stay close to the original idea of
hard science and Golden Age SF feeling, but some have failed spectacular-
ly - and long before Mongoose ever thought of publishing Traveller.

Absolutely. Way back in the early days, a friend of my asked if he could referee some Traveller games. I was always the ref, but relished the chance to actually play, so said yes. Out came Paul's old Star Frontiers adventures for very minor adjustment (mostly creating UPPs for the NPCs). It didn't take long before we were fighting Cyberslugs. I read posts about how Mongoose have sullied the good name of Traveller, but I bet we all know Referees who have been doing that since the 70s

 

[kafka47]

GDW kept their cards very close in the CT by insisting that it was Golden Age SF with a hard edge. Not wanting to destroy that myth but Traveller kept on breaking those boundaries and venturing into Space Opera and periodically they would issue things that would attempt to reign it in. But, I think, fandom who took in the OTU could see that slide and tension.

Which I am sure why the founders of Traveller were very happy about Traveller 2300. For here could be finally a Hard SF game. And, here they could design Traveller right (problem was that it was not Traveller but an outgrowth of the Twilight universe) forever relegating Traveller to Space Opera. But, myths don't die overnight and furthermore they had weight of all they had done previously in trying to turn Traveller is a hard direction combined with T:2300 was also becoming less hard.

A more interesting question perhaps is why was this occuring? Part of the answer lies in changing place of Science Fiction within our societ(ies); other parts might be other competitive pressures from other games; age of the game designers; etc.

 

[atpollard]

I didn't necessarily mean those specific instances. What I was getting is that science grows all the time. And simply because we cannot think of something existing today doesn't mean that it cannot be a daily reality in a very short jaunt in the future.

So why do some hold to a "it must be hard science" stance?

Following the non-hard science route leads to a universe where the character encounters a crisis (like the sun entering a period on instability that requires evacuating all of the population to a new system). So our hero (post singularity Peter Perfect) uses his augmented Psi Powers to activate his ubiquitous pack of UNIVERSAL REPLICATOR Nano Sand to quickly grow a sentient Scout Ship so he can escape. Fortunately this, like every other world in the Utopian Empire, is TL 16 so every adult has access to the same Augmented Psi and Nano Sand.

In the end, the crisis was really more of a minor nusiance. To ratchet up the 'challenge' in our post material society, we need to resort to the 'Grendel's Mother' or 'Jump the Shark' approach. Next week, Peter Perfect and company encounter the sentient anti-matter black hole creature!

Is that what you really had in mind as Traveller?

The specific NANOTECHNOLOGY ban, as explained by others, is a warning against the campaign busting Magic Replicators and Grey Goo. The general principal applies to any other campaign-disrupting Tech (like interstellar matter transport, Star Trek Replicators, and disintegration rays) even if it could be projected from real science or pure science-fiction.

 

[CosmicGamer]

My thoughts on Sci Fi are pretty simple.
Sci Fi items for a far future RPG are best left up to the imagination. Reality is often not as exciting and fun.

If we could figure out all the hard science involved in these future items, they would be here today. A need to try and explain every detail of how some future item works is where people could get in trouble because the more detail you have, the greater the chance you are breaking some hard science principle.

I prefer little detail on the inner workings of future things in Traveller. Of course it's easy for me because I don't know the details of how most current things work on the inside!

 

[Supplement Four]

Ah, well, not quite so.

TNE's Fire, Fusion & Steel had Cold Fusion, Dean Drives, Psionic Transfer Drives and a couple of other options that are at least as far away from hard science as any of the options of Mongoose Traveller, and I know quite a lot of similar stuff from other versions of Traveller.

Absolutely.

You boys didn't read FF&S too closely, then. Note, in the introduction (I believe...it's been a long time since I've read it), it states that the book contains a lot of technology that is not intended for, or will change the basic fabric of, a Traveller game.

They put that stuff in there for GMs who wanted to deviate with TTU.

That stuff was never intended for the OTU.

And, it was clearly marked, so.

 

[beowulf2044]

You're saying Jump Drives, Anit-Gravity and Teleportaion via Psionics isn't 'Magic'? Of course it's magic. We just dress it up with arbitrary limitations to give an illusion of potential reality. But any game that currently posits taking humans faster than the speed of light is involking magic dressed up as potential science and theoretical engineering.

 

[Jason]

Traveller isn't hard science - it's space opera with a little more science content than other notable space operas. 2300 wasn't hard science either - it just had a little more science content than Traveller.

A true "hard science" sci-fi RPG, where none of the laws of physics are stretched or broken would probably be pretty boring. It certainly wouldn't be Traveller.

 

[kafka47]

Traveller isn't hard science - it's space opera with a little more science content than other notable space operas. 2300 wasn't hard science either - it just had a little more science content than Traveller.

A true "hard science" sci-fi RPG, where none of the laws of physics are stretched or broken would probably be pretty boring. It certainly wouldn't be Traveller.

Remember in my post I talked about Traveller 2300 - for I believe there was a quantitative break when they released 2300AD.

I don't think a Hard SF would be pretty boring just difficult to run...I would offer Dream Pod 9's Jovian Chronicles as an excellent Hard SF RPG or Terradyne (although much less so) or indeed the early T:2300 as good games.

I have used Traveller (albeit CT) as a Hard SF campaign which took before First Contact with the Vilani and it worked rather well. All I did was take out all TL above A.

You're saying Jump Drives, Anit-Gravity and Teleportaion via Psionics isn't 'Magic'? Of course it's magic. We just dress it up with arbitrary limitations to give an illusion of potential reality. But any game that currently posits taking humans faster than the speed of light is involking magic dressed up as potential science and theoretical engineering.

Sure it is all "magic" but whether or not, it is just something that happens a la Vancian "magic" is the question. Vancian magic is one where it just happens. Which Star Wars there does not need be any explaination for what exists...it just does. Traveller at least, like Golden Age SF, does try to provide an explaination based upon what we currently know to be true about the universe.

 

[dmccoy1693]

The lesson is, BSG (and Traveller IMHO) isn't about how far-future engineers make their cool stuff work, it's about emotionally fragile heroes, people fighting for what they believe in, tensions between ambition and loyalty, all that jazz.

That's exactly how I approach role playing games. I prefer my games to focus on the characters over everything else.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Simpler than all of that. I think it was the eye of the casual game browswer that defined such a simple and elegant system as "Hard Science". This sort of thing happens when you see a lot of tables and charts out of context at a quick glance.

I think I remember my father thumbing thru the Traveller Book and seeing the "turnaround at midpoint" graphic and a few of the formulae and saying "Holy crap! Is this a game or a NASA training manual?"

I think this is a case of the casual player labeling the not-so-casual player, and scientific "hardness" is a matter of Referee preference, as it should be, and always has been.

 

[beowulf2044]

Fair enough. Now I'm going back to working on 'Traveller-1942'

 

[the angle]

Space Quest: I don't know enough to talk about it.

Published by TYR Gamemakers. (I can't say for certain, but I think the core of TYR went on to become the core of FGU.) Space Quest was far from hard SF. The character rules were abysmal. OTOH, it had excellent rules for laying out the campaign star map in 3D and creating star systems with considerably more detail than CT but far simpler than Scouts or WBG. It also had terrific rules for spaceship design and combat, including for in-battle repairs and collateral damage during boarding actions. Spaceship design and combat were both more detailed and simpler than CT, which is quite a feat.

Steve

 

[sabredog]

Traveller is space opera enough for fun with enough hard science to keep things consistent, but not so much that it doesn’t have room for exotic technology. The rules cite many examples of higher tech widgets like anti-matter drives and disintegrators. JTAS had an excellent article on how an anti-PAW weapon would work within the hard science framework of Traveller. And besides, anything campaign-busting by way of super-Trek type technology can always be blamed on the Ancients.

My general rule of thumb is that anything so high tech it is like magic (re. Clarke’s 3rd Law) is either so limited that if a player retains it it has value really only to him (like some widget that heals you faster, or some non-reproducible weapon like a variable sword…and they can never really be sure how long the thing will function), or once the players bring it to the attention of the universe by using something so obvious they can’t hide it the government/megacorp/men in black step in and take it from them to lock it away with the Ark of the Covenant.

They get to play with some TL-17+ goodies for an adventure, hopefully not kill themselves or blow up a planet while doing so, then they can pocket a few small items that won’t ruin the campaign while they are left with a great old spacehand’s yarn about this rogue planet they stumbled across with this unknown alien ship……just like the old spacehand yarns they often hear that get them hooked into adventures in the first place.

 

[Allensh]

Fair enough. Now I'm going back to working on 'Traveller-1942'

I want to playtest that!!!

Allen

 

[bozzutoman]

Any science fiction game that includes commonplace gravitics and FTL use, god-like ancient aliens that self-destructed, a feudal-style empire, terran-analog aliens, and psionics is clearly more fiction than science. But the OTU did avoid the more fantastical clichés.

IIRC SPI's Universe was a bit harder in the science.

 

[aramis]

most of the other pre-'81 games had constant speed drives of one form or another. In that era, it WAS mighty hard on the science.

 

[PathfinderAP]

So, I would like your opinions. Why do you feel, those that do feel this way, that Traveller should hold true to hard science?

Well you have Jump Drives, so how hard is that?, lol
"Traveller Science" is more of a setting theme than any kind of future reality,
(I mean look at the old CT computers, you can carry more power in your pocket now days)

I honestly believe that the future will be more like Star Trek,
after all its had many more scientists and people of intellect in various fields contribute to what they think the future would be like,

yesterdays fiction, tomorrow's fact,


Can you see the hard facts of what Science will know?
No?, then don't worry, just use what you do know (or what you think you know) and don't worry

 

[PathfinderAP]

I want to playtest that!!!

Allen

Ditto,

That looks cool

 

[beowulf2044]

Thanks. But this may take awhile. I keep getting stuck working on character development.