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Help me with nukes!

MrMorden

SOC-12
Hey all...

I am having trouble understanding how nukes work in T20. According to the rules (at least the ones I can see), all missiles' base damage is 5d6. So what do nukes do, the same 5d6 damage? That seems uber lame.

A nuke should do at least ten times the damage a conventional missile does, plus radiation...but I can find in the rules where nuke damage is specified. Can somebody set me straight here?

Thanks...
 
Quick rundown of the rules:

A missile system has a USP rating between 1 and 9.

Conventional missiles do USPd6 damage with no radiation.

Nuclear missiles do (USP+5)d6 damage and USPd12 radiation damage.

Nukes do a LOT more damage. A rating 9 system does an average of 31 damage, nukes do 49 + 58 radiation damage.

The nukes that are being talked about are tiny (50kg including propulsion/logic/armor/sensors/sheilding) so are likely to only be in the 1kTon range, and probably much smaller. Conversely the conventional warheads don't need as much sheilding, and thus will have a larger weight allowance for a warhead.
 
Okay, that makes more sense...but where are these rules *specified*? I have poured through both versions of the T20 handbook, and cannot find where it talks about radiation damage from nuke warheads.

Also, with only USPd6 damage, doesn't this make standard missiles a little anemic? I mean, why would you EVER mount a missile rack at KCr 5 per shot, that has to track and hit the target, when you can mount a laser that does more damage and has no flight time (to speak of)???

In CT a missile did a lot more damage than a laser, so that justified the expense. In T20, unless you are using nukes I see no advantage to missiles at all...
 
Look at the table on page 270.

And to quote myself from this thread:
To get back to the CT feel of things I use the rules for nuclear missiles for conventional HE missiles (without the radiation extra hits), and have nukes use a d20 for damage, have a higher critical threat at 16, and also include the radiation damage.
 
Glad you like it


It makes players worried about incoming missiles, just like the old days
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Sure, Morden. Where we movin' them too?


OK, IMTU that FatherFletch and I play with, ownership of nukes is an Imperium-only gig... Being caught in violation of the Imperial Rules of War loaded in the heterogenous turret near you is a VERY BAD THING.

Further, it's assumed that civilian and IISS ships do not have Rad-safe missile storage systems (your TU may vary). Besides, if you keep nuking the locals, you're never gonna make that next ship payment...
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There appears to be a damage difference between Missiles and lasers. Lasers you only pay for once, missiles you pay for each shot. (Though lasers are much more expensive initially, especially if you include power and fuel requirements.)

However when comparing the damage difference between Laser and Missile keep in mind, that all you need to score is one point of SI damage per hit. Most ships don't succumb to SI damage, (Meson weapons excluded from this discussion, and to a lesser extent Fusion and with small ships lets follow the Imperial Rules of War and leave the Nukes in the hands of the Navy.) the rolls, 1 per hit that manages to score at least 1 point of damage, on the internal damage table do more than the associated SI damage to take a ship out. (This is even true of Capital ships.) Now this does assume that the target isn't facing overwhelming firepower but a ship of roughly equal size.

The internal damage rolls will disable the ship, on average, long before you reduce the SI of your opponent to 0.

With HG and MT Missiles weren't all that dangerous. They were roughly equal to lasers. They certainly weren't one shot ship killers. (Not even the nukes.) In T20 they look weaker but they are still roughly equal to lasers in terms of disabling/destroying a ship with a longer range. (Though typical Character scale ships that point is also moot as sensor range is well under effective range of most weapons.)

Yes you can shoot down missiles in T20. However that also means that when you are shooting at missiles you are not shooting at your opponent.
 
One other point. Before you go increasing the damage caused by Missiles. A Missile Launcher, unless it is a dedicated combat craft that gets into combat on a regular basis, is quite a bit cheaper than a Laser. It takes lots of missiles fired before you equal the cost of a Laser, especially if you keep away from the military BPLs and Nukes and stick to HE. (Regardless of Traveller Rule set.)

Don't believe me? How many KCr5 missiles do you have to fire to equal the cost of a Laser-the cost of a missile launcher? How about the tonnage difference, especially sub TL-13?

Here is how it breaks down, T20 style. A Triple Missile Launcher requires 2 tons for a reasonable engagement. 1 ton for the turret, 1 ton for the magazine. This gives you 9 2/3 turns of combat. The launcher, turret and Hardpoint total MCr3.35. 2 reloads per tube and 20 missiles for the magazine. an additional KCr145

Total initial cost for the Launcher with full load out=MCr3.495 and 2 tons.

Triple Laser. Now adding a Triple laser looks like a cheaper long term solution, on the surface. After all the turret is either MCr2.6 or MCr4.1 and one ton. But it is also 3EP. In a sub TL13 ship 3EP requires 4.5 tons of Powerplant and 3 tons of fuel. So final volume of this laser is actually 8.5 tons. (At TL13 it drops to 7 tons.)

Also one of the most expensive items in a starship is the Powerplant at MCr3 per ton. So this laser is going to cost MCr16.1 or MCr17.6 (Pulse vs. Beam) At TL13 this drops to MCr11.6 or MCr13.1

Taking the Sub Tl13 Pulse laser as the guideline here. It would take an additional 2521 missiles or 840.3333 (Above the initial 9.666666) shots to equal the cost of a Triple Pulse Laser. That is a total of 850 combat rounds at maximum rate of fire. It will be a rare non-combat vessel that will ever see 850 combat rounds during its useful life. Scaling up Missile damage, IMHO, when actually doing a cost comparison either based on space or Credits, is not a fair thing to do.

Hell, even with a straight Nuclear arsenal. (Which does quite a bit more damage than the Lasers.) you get 85 combat rounds at maximum rate of fire. (Most ships won't live through 85 combat rounds, even if they win all of their combats.) Your repairs are going to cost more than you missiles.
 
Originally posted by Ganidiirsi O'Flynn:
Sure, Morden. Where we movin' them too? :)

OK, IMTU that FatherFletch and I play with, ownership of nukes is an Imperium-only gig... Being caught in violation of the Imperial Rules of War loaded in the heterogenous turret near you is a VERY BAD THING.

Further, it's assumed that civilian and IISS ships do not have Rad-safe missile storage systems (your TU may vary). Besides, if you keep nuking the locals, you're never gonna make that next ship payment... :devil:
Thats pretty much as it should be. Nukes should never fall into PC hands and if they do the 3I should do everything possible to retrieve them.
 
Or as I told one of our players who did indeed steal a nuke missile from an old wreck,

"Tom, you see that guy in Imperial Navy service dress? Well he's got six friends in Combar Armor with gauss rifles and cutlasses. That mean's they're askin' nice. You only get 'nice' once. After that, they're going to get annoyed..."

 
Dear Folks -

Originally posted by Jamus:
Thats pretty much as it should be. Nukes should never fall into PC hands and if they do the 3I should do everything possible to retrieve them.
I think we have different views on what may be available for privateers.

If you are very, VERY nice, squeaky-clean (or at least have a powerful patron), you may possibly be able to use nukes. Only small ones, of course.

Blank Letter of Marque

(And certainly the IISS should have nuke-capable missile storage - you may encounter Bad Things when you are surveying extra-Imperial territories).
 
Hyphen, I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Possession and use of nukes is an Imperial-level decision for Imperial-level problems. Any use of nukes by a member world is cause for an Imperial Intervention, and those responable for the decision to obtain and use them tend to spend the what little is left of rest of their lives in very dark places...

I could, however, be persuaded that some IISS vessels have rad-safe magazines and launching systems, but even then the decision to 'nuke it from orbit' is gonna be made WAY higher than a weapon systems Scout's pay grade. IMHO, there is NO WAY that the Imperium is gonna let a private group of mercenaries (Privateers, Adventurers, etc.) have any NBC (Nuclear Biological Chemical) weaponry stronger than CS (Riot Control, or Tear) gas or it's TL 15 equivilent.
toast.gif
I mean, look at what the Royal Navy puts potential Sub commanders through aboard HMS Perisher, and the USN is just as tough...

But as always, its your TU.
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One other point. Before you go increasing the damage caused by Missiles. A Missile Launcher, unless it is a dedicated combat craft that gets into combat on a regular basis, is quite a bit cheaper than a Laser. It takes lots of missiles fired before you equal the cost of a Laser, especially if you keep away from the military BPLs and Nukes and stick to HE. (Regardless of Traveller Rule set.)

Don't believe me? How many KCr5 missiles do you have to fire to equal the cost of a Laser-the cost of a missile launcher? How about the tonnage difference, especially sub TL-13?

Here is how it breaks down, T20 style. A Triple Missile Launcher requires 2 tons for a reasonable engagement. 1 ton for the turret, 1 ton for the magazine. This gives you 9 2/3 turns of combat. The launcher, turret and Hardpoint total MCr3.35. 2 reloads per tube and 20 missiles for the magazine. an additional KCr145

Total initial cost for the Launcher with full load out=MCr3.495 and 2 tons.

Triple Laser. Now adding a Triple laser looks like a cheaper long term solution, on the surface. After all the turret is either MCr2.6 or MCr4.1 and one ton. But it is also 3EP. In a sub TL13 ship 3EP requires 4.5 tons of Powerplant and 3 tons of fuel. So final volume of this laser is actually 8.5 tons. (At TL13 it drops to 7 tons.)

Also one of the most expensive items in a starship is the Powerplant at MCr3 per ton. So this laser is going to cost MCr16.1 or MCr17.6 (Pulse vs. Beam) At TL13 this drops to MCr11.6 or MCr13.1

Taking the Sub Tl13 Pulse laser as the guideline here. It would take an additional 2521 missiles or 840.3333 (Above the initial 9.666666) shots to equal the cost of a Triple Pulse Laser. That is a total of 850 combat rounds at maximum rate of fire. It will be a rare non-combat vessel that will ever see 850 combat rounds during its useful life. Scaling up Missile damage, IMHO, when actually doing a cost comparison either based on space or Credits, is not a fair thing to do.

Hell, even with a straight Nuclear arsenal. (Which does quite a bit more damage than the Lasers.) you get 85 combat rounds at maximum rate of fire. (Most ships won't live through 85 combat rounds, even if they win all of their combats.) Your repairs are going to cost more than you missiles.
What you say is true, as far as it goes. However, most of these additional costs are what economists call "sunk costs." In other words, the "additional powerplant" costs and similar costs have already been borne by the PCs. It's not like they have to pay *additional* money to get that capability -- it is part of the value they have already purchased in buying their ship. So why not make use of it?

I guarantee my PCs are concerned with the fact that after the 25th missile launched, their missile rack starts costing them Cr5000 more PER SHOT than a beam laser, for the same damage. Much more so than some vague concept of "wow, we could have bought a smaller powerplant...except that this one was included with the ship."

Add to the above the fact that lasers shoot down missiles but not vice versa, and things are even more out or whack. If there is no additional incentive to purchase missiles, the players will pick a laser every time.

As a DM, I want the PCs to have options, and I also want to tempt them to spend that Cr5K per shot...if they think they can put a bigger hurt on the bad guys (or the good guys, depending on the day and the PCs mood), then they might go for it.
 
Originally posted by MrMorden:
What you say is true, as far as it goes. However, most of these additional costs are what economists call "sunk costs." In other words, the "additional powerplant" costs and similar costs have already been borne by the PCs. It's not like they have to pay *additional* money to get that capability -- it is part of the value they have already purchased in buying their ship. So why not make use of it?

I guarantee my PCs are concerned with the fact that after the 25th missile launched, their missile rack starts costing them Cr5000 more PER SHOT than a beam laser, for the same damage. Much more so than some vague concept of "wow, we could have bought a smaller powerplant...except that this one was included with the ship."

Add to the above the fact that lasers shoot down missiles but not vice versa, and things are even more out or whack. If there is no additional incentive to purchase missiles, the players will pick a laser every time.

As a DM, I want the PCs to have options, and I also want to tempt them to spend that Cr5K per shot...if they think they can put a bigger hurt on the bad guys (or the good guys, depending on the day and the PCs mood), then they might go for it.
However of all the standard non-military ships the Type-S is the only ship that has excess power capacity intentionally built in. And you trade agility, in that case, for the lasers. The other ships that have excess power do so because their jump capacity is higher than their maneuver capacity, for example the Subsidized Liner, and the Fast Courier (Avenger Enterprises Golden Age Starship 1), both of which are Jump-3 Maneuver 1G, and if a Far Trader has a Maneuver Drive 1 with its Jump 2 drive (I have seen that done both ways.). Depending on the version of Traveller, in general, the other ships that have the power for lasers also have the lasers already. In T20 this is especially the case. (In fact the Mercenary Cruiser is underpowered compared to its CT and MT version.) Now the Liner and Fast Courier do actually have 12 points and 4 points of excess power respectively that doesn't effect agility but other than those two cases I am at a loss to find ships that are normally built with energy to power lasers, instead of being used for something else, included in the design.

Because of the cost of excess power capacity, standard commercial ships do not generally include excess power capacity.

Regardless of how you count it, the overall cost is still quite a bit higher for the Laser than the Missile Launcher. So before you go changing the damage you still have to bear that in mind.

Yes the Players might not like throwing KCr5 at an enemy, but losing 8 tons of cargo per turret will also cause them to gripe and will generally be felt more than the KCr5 per missile, unless they run into a starship battle constantly.

The cost of the excess power required for the lasers has to be taken into account, for true economics of the ship. Looking at it another way, the cost of the power for a sub TL13 ship, adds Cr18,750 to the monthly mortgage per single laser.
So that Triple Laser turret that cost them 8 tons of cargo also costs them an additional Cr56250 per month. (If they are firing 12+ missiles on average per month, then the additional cost for the lasers is worth it.)

Did you have a ship in mind that had excess power that I haven't mentioned?
 
I think we have different views on what may be available for privateers.
Not really and good point.
If you have never read it emperors arsenal pg71 explains in detail why the 3I keeps nukes under wraps and exactly what circumstance might warrant deployment.
 
When my party was crewing a Type R Vilani Flying Brick, I always advocated a ventral turret with a sandcaster and a VRF Gauss Gun... it was my 'natives go home' turret...


In any event, remember that the vast majority of EP spent aboard an 'Adventurer' type of ship is going to be spent in powering the J-Drive anyway.

In any event, I agree with BTL on this one. I've been playing Trav for nigh-on three decades and never once has someone wanted to turn in their power plant for a smaller, more economical one. I mean, it isn't as if General Shipyards will give you your core deposit back... For better or worse, most parties don't ever come close to being able to 'pimp their starship'. By and large they're stuck with the base performance the vessel rolled out of the shipyard with.

And most players see fuel costs as free with wilderness refuelling. Missiles, however, cost cash money. And why would PC's want to stay in a combat for 25 rounds anyway? The have almost no defenses at all. Adventurer class ships have little to no armor, no shields, and maybe a few ECM or Manuver programs between them and ruptured bulkheads. Most PC's run in that situation. And they should. The Merchants, Navy, and Scouts all train them to tactically retreat when faced with threats in a ship 200 tons or less.

As for deployment of nukes, GT: Star Mercs also does a good job discussing the why-for of Imperial policy.
 
Fuel may be free. (Depending on campaign setting, in mine if the planet can enforce licensing for wilderness fueling they usually will.) I didn't even take into account the additional fuel cost. The mortgage cost of the additional Powerplant isn't.

The VFR Gaussgun in a turret, I usually put on small craft. Especially fighters for the Close Air Support Role. Starships don't generally waste tonnage on that, IMTU. It isn't a bad idea, but if you are going to spend the money on a Starship, get something that will also defend the starship in space.
 
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