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HG 2 Combat Pre-Combat Desicion Breaking off by jumping

snrdg082102

SOC-14 1K
Evening all,

I'm trying to make sense of the information provided for determining the required Power Plant EP to make a jump breaking off combat. In the examples I'm using the ship has the jump fuel and computer needed to make the jump

Parameters:
Hull: 75,000 dtons
Power Plant 8 with an output of 6,000 EP
Jump Drive 5

Example 1:
Ship breaks off by using a Jump 2

Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 2 = 750 x 2 = 1,500 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 1,500 x 2 = 3,000 EP

The Power Plant EP is enough to make a jump at the end of 1 turn

Example 2:
Ship breaks off by using a Jump 3


Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 3 = 750 x = 4,500 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 4,500 x 2 = 9,000 EP


The Power Plant EP is enough to make a jump at the end of 2 turns

Example 3:
Ship breaks off by using a Jump 5


Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 5 = 750 x = 7,500 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 7,500 x 2 = 15,000 EP


The Power Plant EP is not enough to make a jump at the end of 2 turns so the ship cannot break off combat.

Have I got this maneuver down correctly?
 
Evening all,

I'm trying to make sense of the information provided for determining the required Power Plant EP to make a jump breaking off combat. In the examples I'm using the ship has the jump fuel and computer needed to make the jump

Parameters:
Hull: 75,000 dtons
Power Plant 8 with an output of 6,000 EP
Jump Drive 5

Example 1:
Ship breaks off by using a Jump 2

Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 2 = 750 x 2 = 1,500 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 1,500 x 2 = 3,000 EP

The Power Plant EP is enough to make a jump at the end of 1 turn

Example 2:
Ship breaks off by using a Jump 3


Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 3 = 750 x = 4,500 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 4,500 x 2 = 9,000 EP


The Power Plant EP is enough to make a jump at the end of 2 turns

Example 3:
Ship breaks off by using a Jump 5


Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 5 = 750 x = 7,500 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 7,500 x 2 = 15,000 EP


The Power Plant EP is not enough to make a jump at the end of 2 turns so the ship cannot break off combat.

Have I got this maneuver down correctly?

"A ship which breaks off by jumping must have a destination and enough fuel to get there. It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =0.01MJn)."

In other words, two turns output from a Power Plant 5. For your ship, a Power Plant 5 would generate 3750 energy points. Two turns output is 7500 energy points. You need to generate 7500 energy points in two turns to make a jump-5, not 7500 per turn. Your mistake resulted from a math error: 5 x 750 does not equal 7500.
 
This example of a jump off calculation that I forgot about from Classic Traveller reminds me why CT is useless for actual gameplay but great for sitting down and getting lost in solo conflicts. Imagine trying to calculate this during a game!

I hope T5 is much more game-friendly. Although I enjoyed my solo games that I did when I was young and had loads of time, at the end of the day Traveller is supposed to be a group playable rpg. Mongoose made great changes in the game-friendly aspects. I really hope T5 continues the thing MgT started and does get Traveller bogged down in this kind of stupid calculation again. Great for astrophysicists and maths boffins but not so good for the rest of us who want a fast exciting space game.
 
Morning Carlobrand,

Thanks for the reply and I goofed in my copy, paste, and modification of Example 1 for both Examples 2 and 3.

"A ship which breaks off by jumping must have a destination and enough fuel to get there. It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =0.01MJn)."

In other words, two turns output from a Power Plant 5. For your ship, a Power Plant 5 would generate 3750 energy points. Two turns output is 7500 energy points. You need to generate 7500 energy points in two turns to make a jump-5, not 7500 per turn. Your mistake resulted from a math error: 5 x 750 does not equal 7500.

Actually I made a couple of errors in examples 2 and 3.

1. The first error in each example my Jump EP formula is I'm missing the Jump number representing the two turns of output

Example 2: Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 3 = 750 x = 4,500 EP
correction:
Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 3 = 750 x 3 = 2,250 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 2,250 x 2 = 4,500 EP

Example 2 the ship can jump at the end of 1 turn.


Example 3: Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 5 = 750 x = 7,500 EP

correction:
Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 5 = 750 x 5 = 3,750 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 3,750 x 2 = 7,500 EP

Example 3 the ship can jump at the end of 2 turns.

The second error was when I copied the numbers over I put them in the wrong lines.

My biggest error was not reviewing the post my normal three times before submitting. Of course I probably still would have goofed since I was yawning at the time.

Thanks for the catch and do I have Examples 2 and 3 squared away now?
 
Howdy Nat,

Thanks for the comment,

This example of a jump off calculation that I forgot about from Classic Traveller reminds me why CT is useless for actual game play but great for sitting down and getting lost in solo conflicts. Imagine trying to calculate this during a game!

I hope T5 is much more game-friendly. Although I enjoyed my solo games that I did when I was young and had loads of time, at the end of the day Traveller is supposed to be a group playable RPG. Mongoose made great changes in the game-friendly aspects. I really hope T5 continues the thing MgT started and does get Traveller bogged down in this kind of stupid calculation again. Great for astrophysicists and maths boffins but not so good for the rest of us who want a fast exciting space game.

I've got the core books for CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, and MgT. I've found each has good points and not so good stuff in them. Somewhere around here is a question that asks about playing MgT over CT. Most of the posts are leaning toward CT.

I will also admit that since I could not find a Traveller gaming group when I got out of the Navy in 1995 I drifted into using the design systems and completely ignored the combat systems. Right now I'm relearning the system.

Again thanks for the reply.
 
Howdy Nat,

Thanks for the comment,

I've got the core books for CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, and MgT. I've found each has good points and not so good stuff in them. Somewhere around here is a question that asks about playing MgT over CT. Most of the posts are leaning toward CT.

I will also admit that since I could not find a Traveller gaming group when I got out of the Navy in 1995 I drifted into using the design systems and completely ignored the combat systems. Right now I'm relearning the system.

Again thanks for the reply.

I must try MgTs High Guard combat sometime to see how it compares with CTs Book 5. In fact I just havent tried much of MgT at all yet. I am going to have to change that.
 
Morning Nats,

I must try MgTs High Guard combat sometime to see how it compares with CTs Book 5. In fact I just havent tried much of MgT at all yet. I am going to have to change that.

As mentioned I have been focused on the design systems and pretty have to learn the combat systems. Of course if I figured out the combat systems first then my designs might fair better in combat.

So far I would play any of the Traveller systems if I could afford to travel, unfortunately circumstances have that on hold.
 
Last edited:
So far I would play any of the Traveller systems if I could afford to travel, unfortunately circumstances have that on hold.

Play a sample combat on your own - choose a couple of small ships and do a battle using the core rules (vector based) and then choose some big ships and do a battle using High Guard. It will greatly help you understand how both of the combat systems work.
 
Afternoon Nats,

Play a sample combat on your own - choose a couple of small ships and do a battle using the core rules (vector based) and then choose some big ships and do a battle using High Guard. It will greatly help you understand how both of the combat systems work.

Yep, that is what I'm working on among other things.
 
This example of a jump off calculation that I forgot about from Classic Traveller reminds me why CT is useless for actual gameplay but great for sitting down and getting lost in solo conflicts. Imagine trying to calculate this during a game!

But let's look at this from an in-game perspective: "Imagine trying to calculate this as you're trying to get away from combat to make a jump out!" :) Means you might want to take other precautions.
 
This example of a jump off calculation that I forgot about from Classic Traveller reminds me why CT is useless for actual gameplay ... Imagine trying to calculate this during a game!

The rule in question is from a part of traveller more akin to wargaming than RPGing.

From an RPG perspective, if it came up, this info would be given to the character from the npc Chief Engineer in the form; "I canna give it any more Captain!".
 
Evening Fritz,

But let's look at this from an in-game perspective: "Imagine trying to calculate this as you're trying to get away from combat to make a jump out!" :) Means you might want to take other precautions.


In HG the decision to break off by jumping or acceleration is pre-combat step which is taken into account during the pursuit step. When I was part of a game session there was somebody who figured all this stuff out. Those were the good old days.
 
Howdy Matt123

The rule in question is from a part of traveller more akin to wargaming than RPGing.

From an RPG perspective, if it came up, this info would be given to the character from the npc Chief Engineer in the form; "I canna give it any more Captain!".

The Chief Engineer still would have pulled off the miracle by remembering how to cross connect some little used system to save the Captain and crew.
 
This example of a jump off calculation that I forgot about from Classic Traveller reminds me why CT is useless for actual gameplay but great for sitting down and getting lost in solo conflicts. Imagine trying to calculate this during a game! ...

I never had any problem with it, but I was always considered a bit of an oddity.

Morning Carlobrand,

Thanks for the reply and I goofed in my copy, paste, and modification of Example 1 for both Examples 2 and 3.



Actually I made a couple of errors in examples 2 and 3.

1. The first error in each example my Jump EP formula is I'm missing the Jump number representing the two turns of output

Example 2: Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 3 = 750 x = 4,500 EP
correction:
Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 3 = 750 x 3 = 2,250 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 2,250 x 2 = 4,500 EP

Example 2 the ship can jump at the end of 1 turn.


Example 3: Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 5 = 750 x = 7,500 EP

correction:
Jump EP = 0.01 x 75,000 x 5 = 750 x 5 = 3,750 EP
Required Power Plant Output EP for Jump = 3,750 x 2 = 7,500 EP

Example 3 the ship can jump at the end of 2 turns.

The second error was when I copied the numbers over I put them in the wrong lines.

My biggest error was not reviewing the post my normal three times before submitting. Of course I probably still would have goofed since I was yawning at the time.

Thanks for the catch and do I have Examples 2 and 3 squared away now?

Assuming the Power Plant-8, yeah.

They actually made it a good deal more complicated then it needed to be. Simplified: if your power plant rating is at least twice the desired jump range, you can jump in one turn. If your power plant rating is at least equal to your desired range, but less than twice the range, you jump in two turns. If it's less than the desired range, you aren't going to be able to jump that range. So your Power Plant-8 can manage anything up to a Jump-4 in one turn.

However, this decision is taken during the pre-combat decision step. You still have to survive the exchange of fire before the jump actually happens:

"A ship which breaks off by jumping must have a destination and enough fuel to get there. It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =O.OlMJn). If it can do this in two turns, it jumps at the end of two turns. If it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of one turn (in the pursuit step)."

So if you test your luck and try a jump-4 with your Power Plant-8, then the power plant takes a hit during the combat step, you could find yourself in the pursuit step with insufficient power plant to make the jump in one turn. You'd have to wait through another turn of battle accumulating power before you can jump out. If your power plant took another hit in that second turn and fell below a 4-rating, you'd no longer have power to make the jump-4: you'd have to scrub the jump and calculate a new destination within the limits of your remaining power plant.

Or you could have a long and vigorous argument with your opponent, saying that you managed to accumulate 7 units of power that round and need only 1 more unit to make the jump. The rules as worded support that interpretation, but that puts you in the very interesting position of managing a jump-4 on a power plant that is now rated below 4; for some folk, the mere thought of a power plant being rated below the jump that's being attempted gives them the heebie jeebies.

Another interesting argument, if your opponent won't buy that first argument and insists your power plant be at least rated to the desired jump range irrespective of the accumulated power, is whether you could use whatever power you'd managed to accumulate for the aborted jump that second turn (the first turn's power is lost), and apply it to make the shorter jump to the new destination at the end of the third turn, or whether you'd instead have to start from scratch.

Another interesting point: rules are quite clear that you have to accumulate power over two turns, no longer, and that the power can't be used for anything else. On the other hand, the thingies accumulating the power are capacitors, which are discussed in the section on black globes - where they are quite obviously capable of storing power for more than two turns and in fact cannot yield up their power except by "eliminating" it through the power plant. In fact, the ship can jump from power accumulated through the black globe over several turns, even though it could never do the same thing with power received from the power plant. Just one of those charming rules conflicts.

(Under the original rules, the Black Globe rules said extra power collected in the capacitors was channeled through the power plant and used by the ship in lieu of power from the power plant - even though the rules also said power drawn to the capacitors from the power plant could not be used for anything but jump. The current errata corrected this by declaring that the extra power isn't used by the ship: it's "eliminated" through the power plant - a stretch, but it prevents people from trying to rationalize that restriction away. We still have the problem of the capacitors being able to accumulate power for jump over several turns via the black globe but not via the power plant. Applying black globe power to jump was likely a bad idea.)
 
Morning Carlobrand,

I never had any problem with it, but I was always considered a bit of an oddity.

To be honest when I played way back when, the GM or GMs appear to have gone with some other combat system or systems. Which is why I'm learning the combat rules so late.

Assuming the Power Plant-8, yeah.

Yes, the original example has the Power Plant with the USP of 8.

They actually made it a good deal more complicated then it needed to be. Simplified: if your power plant rating is at least twice the desired jump range, you can jump in one turn. If your power plant rating is at least equal to your desired range, but less than twice the range, you jump in two turns. If it's less than the desired range, you aren't going to be able to jump that range. So your Power Plant-8 can manage anything up to a Jump-4 in one turn.

Way back in the muddy regions of my wet ware your simplified method was beginning to take shape.

However, this decision is taken during the pre-combat decision step. You still have to survive the exchange of fire before the jump actually happens:

"A ship which breaks off by jumping must have a destination and enough fuel to get there. It must expend energy points equal to two turns output from a power plant whose number is equal to the jump being attempted (EP required =O.OlMJn). If it can do this in two turns, it jumps at the end of two turns. If it can do this in one turn or less, it jumps at the end of one turn (in the pursuit step)."

So if you test your luck and try a jump-4 with your Power Plant-8, then the power plant takes a hit during the combat step, you could find yourself in the pursuit step with insufficient power plant to make the jump in one turn. You'd have to wait through another turn of battle accumulating power before you can jump out. If your power plant took another hit in that second turn and fell below a 4-rating, you'd no longer have power to make the jump-4: you'd have to scrub the jump and calculate a new destination within the limits of your remaining power plant.

Yep, which indicates that the charge time for the jump capacitors under normal circumstances is greater than 20 minutes.

Or you could have a long and vigorous argument with your opponent, saying that you managed to accumulate 7 units of power that round and need only 1 more unit to make the jump. The rules as worded support that interpretation, but that puts you in the very interesting position of managing a jump-4 on a power plant that is now rated below 4; for some folk, the mere thought of a power plant being rated below the jump that's being attempted gives them the heebie jeebies.

If I understood the simplified version a Power Plant-8 takes 1 turn or 20 minutes to charge the jump capacitors for a emergency jump of 4.

Combat damage to the Power Plant of between 1 and 4 hits on the Power Plant increases the charge time to 2 turns for a jump 4. A fifth hit scrubs the Jump 4.

Another interesting argument, if your opponent won't buy that first argument and insists your power plant be at least rated to the desired jump range irrespective of the accumulated power, is whether you could use whatever power you'd managed to accumulate for the aborted jump that second turn (the first turn's power is lost), and apply it to make the shorter jump to the new destination at the end of the third turn, or whether you'd instead have to start from scratch.

I see the process that the power plant is charging the jump capacitors at a metered rate. Breaking off by jump is an emergency operating procedure that allows charging the capacitors at double the ship's standard operating manual procedure. Damage to the power plant does not affect the charge accumulated in the jump capacitors. However, damage to the jump drive does effect the accumulated charge.

Another interesting point: rules are quite clear that you have to accumulate power over two turns, no longer, and that the power can't be used for anything else. On the other hand, the thingies accumulating the power are capacitors, which are discussed in the section on black globes - where they are quite obviously capable of storing power for more than two turns and in fact cannot yield up their power except by "eliminating" it through the power plant. In fact, the ship can jump from power accumulated through the black globe over several turns, even though it could never do the same thing with power received from the power plant. Just one of those charming rules conflicts.

(Under the original rules, the Black Globe rules said extra power collected in the capacitors was channeled through the power plant and used by the ship in lieu of power from the power plant - even though the rules also said power drawn to the capacitors from the power plant could not be used for anything but jump. The current errata corrected this by declaring that the extra power isn't used by the ship: it's "eliminated" through the power plant - a stretch, but it prevents people from trying to rationalize that restriction away. We still have the problem of the capacitors being able to accumulate power for jump over several turns via the black globe but not via the power plant. Applying black globe power to jump was likely a bad idea.)

I did find the apparent conflict and disagree with how the errata handles the use of stored power in the jump capacitors. A capacitor can store and release energy at a measured rate. However, the duration that the capacitor can provide the same level of output of a power plant is going to be short.

However, I'll use modified rules for using power stored in jump capacitors when the GM and other players agree. My rule, I think anyway, is simple each item that draws EP decreases the stored EP in the jump capacitors. When the capacitors EP is below the ability to provide power everything goes dark, unless of course the primary or back-up power plant is brought on-line.

Thanks again for the reply.
 
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