HG Flight Section Clarification

[snrdg082102]

Hello everyone,

I have a feeling that this is another one of my to much detail posts so my apologies in advance.

HG2 page 33 Flight Section:

1. If the ship has any launched craft, it should have a Flight Control Officer, crew for each craft, and at least one maintenance person per craft.

What does the Flight Control Officer do?

Until today I had thought that the Flight Control Officer was in charge of the flight crews and craft maintenance crews. Then when I re-read the section on Launch Tubes I'm not sure. The requirement for at least 10 crew, including a flight supervision officer, prompted a search of the errata and boards to answer this question:

Does the Flight Control Officer have a staff?

If nothing else an answer off the forums would be of help.

 

[samuelvss]

My SWAG, is that you are correct on the Flight Control Officer, and that the Flight Supervision Officer is indeed in charge of the launch tubes; the flight and maintenance personnel of the launched craft are, IMHO, largely the staff or the the of which the staff is made, for the Flight Control Officer.

Now, another question is where they fit in the chain of command in relation to each other. You will only have the launch tubes, presumably, with a larger ship with several squadrons; this argues for the fact that the Flight Control Officer may likely be senior, but both may be subordinate to another, without either being under the other. Of course, "wiring diagrams" don't tell us everything: the Flight Supervision Officer may work for the Flight Control Officer, but be able to control or even prevent launching operations. Analogously, noone tells POTUS what to do..except the Secret Service protective detail.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello samuelvss,

My SWAG, is that you are correct on the Flight Control Officer, and that the Flight Supervision Officer is indeed in charge of the launch tubes; the flight and maintenance personnel of the launched craft are, IMHO, largely the staff or the the of which the staff is made, for the Flight Control Officer.

Now, another question is where they fit in the chain of command in relation to each other. You will only have the launch tubes, presumably, with a larger ship with several squadrons; this argues for the fact that the Flight Control Officer may likely be senior, but both may be subordinate to another, without either being under the other. Of course, "wiring diagrams" don't tell us everything: the Flight Supervision Officer may work for the Flight Control Officer, but be able to control or even prevent launching operations. Analogously, noone tells POTUS what to do..except the Secret Service protective detail.

At least I appear to have some clue here which I thank you for.

My take is the Flight Control Officer (FCO) is senior since that position is required on hull > 1,000 displacement tons and carrying any size craft. In a way this position reminds of the Commander Air Group position on carriers. Of course I could be totally out to lunch.

The Flight Supervision Officer (FSO) only shows up when lauch tubes are installed.

Thanks again

 

[sabredog]

My take was that the Flight Control Officer is the CAG - as you said, but because the rules were unclear on the FSO: relative to if that's per tube or 1 FSO for ALL the tubes, I decided that it is a per tube position. Just like weapon batteries have to have a senior officer per battery.

So on a carrier with say, hangars for large assault landers and such, and 6 launch tubes to accommodate fighters of various types I would have 1 FCO over-watching the whole shindig, and 6 FSO's doing the same thing for the launch tubes while subordinate to the FCO....and as a house-rule (because it makes sense) 1 FSO to oversee launch and recovery ops in the hangars.

The FCO will be in CIC, but the FSO's are stationed at the tubes (and hangars, if you go with that) themselves. So IMHO the FCO is Deck Command Staff to co-ordinate the larger launch ops picture, and the FSO is more correctly with the Flight Section because he is the guy in direct supervision.

 

[snrdg082102]

Thanks Sabredog for the reply and further confirmation I see the light at the end of the tunnel.

However, I have a small quibble with the 1 senior officer per battery based on how I understand the rules, which could be out of whack and has been for a long time.

Here goes my break down of the requirements:

1. A Chief Cunnery Officer is required on hulls > 1,000 ton mounting offensive or defensive weapons or systems.

2. Each weapon type should have at least 1 Petty Officer, aka Non-Commissioned Officer.

3. Spinal Mounts should have 1 crew member per 100 displacement tons

The smallest spinal mount displaces 1,000 tons requiring a crew of round(1,000/100,0) = 10.

Using requirement 6 the spinal mount has round(10 x 0.1,0) = 1 officer and if(round(10 x 0.3,0) < 1, 1, round(10 x 0.3,0)) = 3 Petty Officers, and 6 ratings. There are three petty officers so Requirement 2 is covered.

4. Bay weapons should have a crew of 2 per bay installed

Each bay weapon type requires 1 Petty Officer.
One missile bay has a crew of 2 with on being a Petty Officer and 1 rating.
Two missile bays has a total of 4 crew members one of which is a Petty Officer.

Requirement 6: Two Missile Bays

Officer = round(4 x 0.1,0) = round(0.4,0) = 0
Petty Officer = round(4 x 0.3,0) = round(0.12,0) = 0

The total required Missile Bay Section is 4 personnel broken down into 0 officers, 1 Petty Officer and 3 ratings at a minimum. I probably have 2 Petty Officers with the senior Petty Officer acting as the Missile Bay NCO.

5. Turrets have should have a crew of 1 per battery installed.

A battery is considered to be 10 turrets of the same weapon type grouped together.

10 x Triple Beam Laser turrets = 1 battery.

At minimum this Beam Laser Battery requires the gunner to be a Petty Officer.

100 x Triple Beam Laser turrets are broken up into 10 batteries each consisting of 10 turrets.

Total Beam Laser Turret personnel = 10

Requirement 6:

Officers = round(10 personnel x 0.1,0) = round(1,0) = 1
Petty Officers = round(10 personnel x 0.3,0) = round(3,0) = 3, again the minimum of 1 Petty Officer per weapon type has been meant.
Rating = 6

Five turret batteries require 1 officer.

6. The Gunnery section should have 10% officers and 30% petty officers.

I've used the manual method (pencil, lots of paper, and calculator), spreadsheets (my own and a couple of ones created by other people), and using Andrew Vallance's HGS application. They have confirmed my numbers.

Hopefully, I haven't been calculating the crew worng for 20+ years.

My take was that the Flight Control Officer is the CAG - as you said, but because the rules were unclear on the FSO: relative to if that's per tube or 1 FSO for ALL the tubes, I decided that it is a per tube position. Just like weapon batteries have to have a senior officer per battery.

So on a carrier with say, hangars for large assault landers and such, and 6 launch tubes to accommodate fighters of various types I would have 1 FCO over-watching the whole shindig, and 6 FSO's doing the same thing for the launch tubes while subordinate to the FCO....and as a house-rule (because it makes sense) 1 FSO to oversee launch and recovery ops in the hangars.

The FCO will be in CIC, but the FSO's are stationed at the tubes (and hangars, if you go with that) themselves. So IMHO the FCO is Deck Command Staff to co-ordinate the larger launch ops picture, and the FSO is more correctly with the Flight Section because he is the guy in direct supervision.

 

[Carlobrand]

The section on crew describes the department head and composition of each department:

"The ship needs one engineering crew member for each 100 tons of drives installed. This should include a knowledgable chief engineer, a second engineer, and several petty officers..."
"The ship should have a chief gunnery officer and at least one petty officer for each type of weapon aboard..."
"If the ship has any launched craft, it should have a flight control officer, crew for each craft, and at least one maintenance person per craft..."

Ergo, the flight control officer is the department head of the flight section, just as the chief engineer is the head of engineering. In addition to the technical aspects of the section, the FCO would have administrative duties: handling personnel issues and fitness reports, ensuring the department acquired whatever supplies it needs, and so forth.

 

[sabredog]

No, your numbers are correct as per the rules go. I add a few extra officers IMTU so that there is one chief battery officer per battery type in CIC. One really large ships there is another officer up the chain in charge of every ten batteries per type. So a ship with twenty bays would have two crew per bay, and two chief officers not on the bridge but at the bays in direct control.

This is similar to the house rule I have for the FSO's: if there are officers in charge at the scene then if the bridge is lost or comms down the batteries can still be commanded by the officers in charge. And it fills in some weird (IMHO) gaps in the chain of command where a single petty officer is in charge of ten turrets but no one else is required? So if he loses comms to the bridge then what? Take a vote with the other batteries?

So I just filled a few blank spots in is all for my peace of mind. And you have to give the middies (or ensigns) something to do other than just polish brass and bring tea to the deck staff.

 

[snrdg082102]

I like the condensed version you provided Carlobrand.

The section on crew describes the department head and composition of each department:

"The ship needs one engineering crew member for each 100 tons of drives installed. This should include a knowledgable chief engineer, a second engineer, and several petty officers..."
"The ship should have a chief gunnery officer and at least one petty officer for each type of weapon aboard..."
"If the ship has any launched craft, it should have a flight control officer, crew for each craft, and at least one maintenance person per craft..."

Ergo, the flight control officer is the department head of the flight section, just as the chief engineer is the head of engineering. In addition to the technical aspects of the section, the FCO would have administrative duties: handling personnel issues and fitness reports, ensuring the department acquired whatever supplies it needs, and so forth.

 

[BlackBat242]

In my view, which is formed by a year at-sea aboard a USN carrier (CV-61 Ranger, 1985-87) and by looking at the ship's organization as shown in our cruisebooks, the positions of the Flight Control Officer (FCO) & Flight Supervision Officer (FSO) are co-equal, and separate.



The FCO is the counterpart of a Squadron Commander (the "squadron" being composed of the small craft flight crews and small craft maintenance personnel). This officer reports directly to the Ship's Captain.

If more than one Squadron is carried, then there would be a "Group (or Wing) Commander" to whom the Squadron COs report and who then reports to the CO.



The FSO is the counterpart of the "Air Boss"... head of the Air Department ("V" department). This officer reports directly to the Ship's Captain.

In the USN the Air Department is organized as follows:
V-1 is the "aircraft handling division", responsible for moving aircraft around the flight deck and between the flight deck and the hangar deck.
V-2 is the "launch division", responsible for operating and maintaining the catapults, arresting gear, and landing aids.
V-3 is the "hangar deck operations division", responsible for operating the aircraft elevators & elevator doors, handling aircraft on the hangar bay, and operating the hangar firefighting equipment.
V-4 is the "fueling" division, responsible for fueling of all aircraft.
V-5 is the "flight control" division, responsible for conducting and coordinating aircraft launch and recovery operations. Note that this is separate from, but closely tied to, the functions of the Carrier Air Traffic Control Center ("OC" division, which is part of the Operations Department).


Aboard Ranger our Air Wing Commander was an Captain (O-6) while the "Air Boss" was a Commander (O-5), but all individual Squadron Commanders were O-5s (Lt.Col. in the case of my squadron [U. S. Marine Corps]).

 

[snrdg082102]

Thanks BlackBat242,

I've been looking for my old copies of the BJM and other material I have on carriers, but seem to have misplaced them. I haven't gotten around to looking at sources on the Internet yet.

Your outline has helped a lot, with as with most items appears to have streamed lined the department down to two divisions for easy of play. Unfortunately, the designers also skimmed on details used in the sections of Command, Engineering, Gunnery, and Medical.

In my view, which is formed by a year at-sea aboard a USN carrier (CV-61 Ranger, 1985-87) and by looking at the ship's organization as shown in our cruisebooks, the positions of the Flight Control Officer (FCO) & Flight Supervision Officer (FSO) are co-equal, and separate.



The FCO is the counterpart of a Squadron Commander (the "squadron" being composed of the small craft flight crews and small craft maintenance personnel). This officer reports directly to the Ship's Captain.

If more than one Squadron is carried, then there would be a "Group (or Wing) Commander" to whom the Squadron COs report and who then reports to the CO.



The FSO is the counterpart of the "Air Boss"... head of the Air Department ("V" department). This officer reports directly to the Ship's Captain.

In the USN the Air Department is organized as follows:
V-1 is the "aircraft handling division", responsible for moving aircraft around the flight deck and between the flight deck and the hangar deck.
V-2 is the "launch division", responsible for operating and maintaining the catapults, arresting gear, and landing aids.
V-3 is the "hangar deck operations division", responsible for operating the aircraft elevators & elevator doors, handling aircraft on the hangar bay, and operating the hangar firefighting equipment.
V-4 is the "fueling" division, responsible for fueling of all aircraft.
V-5 is the "flight control" division, responsible for conducting and coordinating aircraft launch and recovery operations. Note that this is separate from, but closely tied to, the functions of the Carrier Air Traffic Control Center ("OC" division, which is part of the Operations Department).


Aboard Ranger our Air Wing Commander was an Captain (O-6) while the "Air Boss" was a Commander (O-5), but all individual Squadron Commanders were O-5s (Lt.Col. in the case of my squadron [U. S. Marine Corps]).