HG ship design questions

[McPerth]

HG gives you the option to use more (or less) advanced materials for the hull when designing a ship, increasing the cost, but also the hull and structure hits you have (MgT LBB2, page 52).

If you use that option, how are then computed the costs refered as X% of the hull cost? from the base cost or the modified one?

Example: you build a 800 dton ship using TL14 materials, so having 20 hull and 20 structure (instead of the usual 16 hull and 16 structure), but costing you 125% of the cost, so MCr 100 instead of 80. Then you want to streamline it and give it 6 points of bonded superdense armor. Streamlining would cost 10% of hull cost, will that be MCr 8 or 10? Same happens with armor, costing 50% of the cost, so, MCr 40 or 50?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hi there,

Base costs on tonnage, not Hull Points. Will all become clear then

 

[atpollard]

If you use that option, how are then computed the costs referred as X% of the hull cost? from the base cost or the modified one

From the unmodified Base Cost.

If you stack other hull options (like Streamlined and Heat Resistant) the increase for each option is calculated based upon the original (unmodified) hull cost.
I see no reason why the TL hull options should be treated any differently.

 

[McPerth]

TY to both.

Now some more questions (I'll post them on different posts to ease any quoting):

Can you armor a hull made on TL 9 materials (cheaper and less hull/structure) with bonded superdense (TL14)? Rules don't forbide that, but I understand for a ship to be armored with bonded superdense it must be built on it (so, TL 14+ materials), as armor is more than just platting over the hull (and because of it, it takes tonnage).

 

[McPerth]

Page 108 core book:

Ship's computers work just like personal computers (see page 91)...

Does that mean rules for Prototech and Retrotech (page 91 sidebar) also apply to them, should you want to use a higher/lower TL computer on your ship (of course they will only apply to price, as weight is irrelevant)?

 

[McPerth]

Following with ship computers and the quote above, it seems software for regular computers may be used for them too.

page 92, computer software table, under expert:

Expert programs mimic skills. (...) Only intelligence and education-based checks can be attempted)

Page 55, under Gunner skill, Turrets:

Firing a turret at an enemy ship: Intelligence or dexterity (...)

(emphasis is mine)

So, could you run an expert gunnery turret program (rating 1-3) instead of a Fire control program (rating 5-15 to attain the same modifier) and use a untrained crewmember to man it, or a fire control 1 (rating 5) to allow turret unmanned fire and an expert program to fire it as with gunnery skill 3 (rating 3) instead of using a fire control 4 (rating 20) to achieve the same result?

 

[atpollard]

TY to both.

Now some more questions (I'll post them on different posts to ease any quoting):

Can you armor a hull made on TL 9 materials (cheaper and less hull/structure) with bonded superdense (TL14)? Rules don't forbide that, but I understand for a ship to be armored with bonded superdense it must be built on it (so, TL 14+ materials), as armor is more than just platting over the hull (and because of it, it takes tonnage).

Everything inside me twitches at this thought, but I don't see why it should be forbidden. In real world terms, let's assume that most water 'ships' are made of steel, but you want a concrete ship to save money. So far that can be done. And for some reason you also want the hull clad in titanium armor. While people will wonder at high-tech armor on a low-tech material hull, no laws of physics have been violated.

Obviously, the TL 9 hull must be made on a TL 14 world with access to bonded superdense, and the entire ship will be TL 14 for maintenance and repairs, but it seems allowable under the rules as I understand them.

 

[atpollard]

Does that mean rules for Prototech and Retrotech (page 91 sidebar) also apply to them, should you want to use a higher/lower TL computer on your ship (of course they will only apply to price, as weight is irrelevant)?

I would say YES

[... and I am curious to hear an official ruling should MongooseMatt choose to respond.]

 

[atpollard]

Following with ship computers and the quote above, it seems software for regular computers may be used for them too.

So, could you run an expert gunnery turret program (rating 1-3) instead of a Fire control program (rating 5-15 to attain the same modifier) and use a untrained crewmember to man it, or a fire control 1 (rating 5) to allow turret unmanned fire and an expert program to fire it as with gunnery skill 3 (rating 3) instead of using a fire control 4 (rating 20) to achieve the same result?

This will require an official answer for anything beyond 'in my Traveller universe', but I would be inclined to say no.

As a general rule, pushing a rule a little to create something not covered elsewhere feels like a perfectly valid practice. If there are no rules for a 'robot taxi' so one combines vehicle and robot design rules to create a 'robot taxi', that seems a fair use. If there are already rules for something (like a robot taxi) and you want to use outside rules just to create the same thing only better/cheaper/whatever ... in other words, just looking for an allowable 'cheat' to give you an advantage over the existing rules ... then that doesn't feel like a fair use of the rules.

Just drop the rating for "Fire Control 4" if that is what you want.

In a way, this reminds me of the old superhero game cheat of picking a disadvantage like blindness and a power like the ability to see without eyes just to gain a few extra character points to spend on other powers ... it feels like a rules gimick to get something for nothing.

 

[McPerth]

Everything inside me twitches at this thought, but I don't see why it should be forbidden.

It's because I also had this feeling that I asked

In real world terms, let's assume that most water 'ships' are made of steel, but you want a concrete ship to save money. So far that can be done. And for some reason you also want the hull clad in titanium armor. While people will wonder at high-tech armor on a low-tech material hull, no laws of physics have been violated.

But armor is more than just this plating, as it's said to involve also bracing, internal structure, etc., and that this is why it takes internal space also (you sure have read about it to boredom in many threads).

I'm not an engineer, but I guess if you intend to make a wooden ship to save costs and plate it with steel to have it armored, it still won't have a true armored ship, and not only in survivality (hull/structure points), but also in penentration.

Obviously, the TL 9 hull must be made on a TL 14 world with access to bonded superdense, and the entire ship will be TL 14 for maintenance and repairs, but it seems allowable under the rules as I understand them.

Fully agree here

 

[McPerth]

[... and I am curious to hear an official ruling should MongooseMatt choose to respond.]

I'd also like to read his answers, as they can (or so I guess) be considered offical.

 

[HG_B]

TY to both.

Now some more questions (I'll post them on different posts to ease any quoting):

Can you armor a hull made on TL 9 materials (cheaper and less hull/structure) with bonded superdense (TL14)? Rules don't forbide that, but I understand for a ship to be armored with bonded superdense it must be built on it (so, TL 14+ materials), as armor is more than just platting over the hull (and because of it, it takes tonnage).

The rules are silent in this. I don't allow it as I consider it to be one process and one continuous hull.

 

[McPerth]

The rules are silent in this. I don't allow it as I consider it to be one process and one continuous hull.

So you'd force a ship to be built in TL14 materials to allow it bonded superdense armor?

I find it quite logical, as I agree with what you say, but it will also make more expensive to armor your ship with bonded superdense, as your hull would cost 125% due to materials (OTOH, you'll have about 25% hull/structure points more).

 

[HG_B]

So you'd force a ship to be built in TL14 materials to allow it bonded superdense armor?

I find it quite logical, as I agree with what you say, but it will also make more expensive to armor your ship with bonded superdense, as your hull would cost 125% due to materials (OTOH, you'll have about 25% hull/structure points more).

Yes, it is more expensive. But, layering seems unlikely. Would you build a modern TL 7 naval ship hull out of reeds and then add modern composite armour to it?

 

[McPerth]

Yes, it is more expensive. But, layering seems unlikely. Would you build a modern TL 7 naval ship hull out of reeds and then add modern composite armour to it?

I agree with you. As I told to Atpollard, It seemed me wrong to allow it, yet rules didn't talk about it.

 

[McPerth]

Yet some more doubts (this time for weapons' upgrades at high TLs):

1) Imagine I'm building a TL 12 ship. I arm it with Particle Beams bays (TL 8). being 4 TLs over TL 8, I upgrade them so that they are accurate and very high yeld.

Are those TL 8 weapons or TL 12 ones to apply the tonnage reduction due to TL?

2) I guess the high yeld does not affect lasers used in the PD role against missiles (after all, one hit is one missile out, damage irrelevant), but does accurate give them a +1 to the defensive roll?

3) Can missiles also be so upgraded (with high/very high yeld, accurate, etc...)?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

to my knowledge:

1) Imagine I'm building a TL 12 ship. I arm it with Particle Beams bays (TL 8). being 4 TLs over TL 8, I upgrade them so that they are accurate and very high yeld.

Are those TL 8 weapons or TL 12 ones to apply the tonnage reduction due to TL?

they are TL 12, so you cannot "shrink" them. basically, you can make them smaller, or make them more powerful. you can mix and match, say apply a double upgrade and 1 TL of shrinking, but you can't apply 3 upgrades and shrink it, or apply 3TLs of shrinking and any upgrades. HG says this on the top og Pg52

2) I guess the high yeld does not affect lasers used in the PD role against missiles (after all, one hit is one missile out, damage irrelevant), but does accurate give them a +1 to the defensive roll?

exact words are "+1dm to all attack rolls", but to be honest, i'd go with yes, for simple common sense.

3) Can missiles also be so upgraded (with high/very high yeld, accurate, etc...)?

don't know. i know missle bays can be tech shrunk, so I can't see a reason why you couldn't apply them to missles.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Weapon TL bonuses are either/or.

2. If you shrink bays, it seems implied that if it relies on a battery of launchers, the numbers remain the same but the size of the launchers and their associated ammunition shrink proportionately.

 

[bobh]

So you'd force a ship to be built in TL14 materials to allow it bonded superdense armor?

I find it quite logical, as I agree with what you say, but it will also make more expensive to armor your ship with bonded superdense, as your hull would cost 125% due to materials (OTOH, you'll have about 25% hull/structure points more).

It really begs the question: if you have a TL9 ship with TL9 armor can you apply plates of similar TL armor to armor up the ship LATER as a refit? Can we ask for rules for this? And if yes, why not add plates of bonded superdense aftermarket on another higher tech world?

Also, I'm new here: Hi!

P.S. I'm puzzled by the small craft rules in High Guard that reference a ten ton fighter (Fighter Drone page 54) with a sG power plant when the performance tables indicate 10 tonners get only up to sF? Perhaps the performance by Hull Volume is incorrect and a '1' is missing from the sA/10 reference point (meaning the entire data set gets moved 'up' so theres a 12 at the sG/10 reference point? The errata makes no mention of this.

 

[McPerth]

It really begs the question: if you have a TL9 ship with TL9 armor can you apply plates of similar TL armor to armor up the ship LATER as a refit? Can we ask for rules for this? And if yes, why not add plates of bonded superdense aftermarket on another higher tech world?

I see the hull and armor as one, so adding armor would be less effective (aside from adding tonnage, so taking all the nubers of the ship design down).

Can you overarmor a battleship with better TL armor (e.g. composite armor to an Iowa class to make it more resistent aginst some weapons)?

Also, I'm new here: Hi!

Wellcome, then.

P.S. I'm puzzled by the small craft rules in High Guard that reference a ten ton fighter (Fighter Drone page 54) with a sG power plant when the performance tables indicate 10 tonners get only up to sF? Perhaps the performance by Hull Volume is incorrect and a '1' is missing from the sA/10 reference point (meaning the entire data set gets moved 'up' so theres a 12 at the sG/10 reference point? The errata makes no mention of this.

But if you lok at the table in page 61 you'll see that to be able to mount an energy weapon, it needs a power plant sG or higher (and for a Particle Beam an sL rated one).

So, I guess the Power Plant sG on a 10 tonn figter will not give better performance than a sF (after all, the maneuver drive sF will not fit on it, as you say), but is needed for the fighter to be able to mount a laser (the only energy weapon it can mount with this Power Plant, as for a Particle Beam it would need an sL)