Hi all (and a question on character dev)

[Meligar]

Hi to all. Long time lurker but only just registered.

Been roleplaying for over 30 years and despite being heavily into sci-fi have only just seriously started roleplaying Traveller (Mongoose version) mostly due the group preferring fantasy. Previous attempts have only ever got as far as generating a character before packing up at the end of the session, never to return.

So now I have something to say, thought I would share.

This time round we have a motley crew (as if there is any other sort) and despite attempting to stay on the straight and narrow, for at least the first hour or so of the campaign our first shipment contained dubious weaponry destined for Penkwhar (Lunion subsector/Spinward Marches) though we dropped the stuff of with a third party in Shirene. Shirene being what it is our next shipment is off to Gorram via Capon.

My question though refers to glaring holes in character development such as a PDF commander of 4 terms not having vac-suit but needing it in the second session of the game (resulting in a rather pathetic crawl across a cargo bay filled with a toxic atmosphere). Basically is it normal to start with a 50+ veteran seemingly incapable of a great many things you might have thought they should have been reasonable at or have I simply made a rookie mistake when generating him?

That aside, we’re enjoying the game immensely.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Still early, don't have my head in the game yet. Is PDF Planetary Defense Force? What publication is this career from?

Can't tell if you made any mistake without knowing what career and assignment/specialization were used.

Most people (not sure if it is in the rules) will allow battle dress skill to be substituted for vacc suit skill.

It may not be a mistake at all. There are only 6 skills that are guaranteed in a career and this is the basic training skills. (and that is only 6 for a characters first career and not any career changes a character may have during chargen) So it is possible that a skill one may think would be needed is not there.

There are even cases where a useful, perhaps even necessary skill for a career and specialty is not even on the tables. For example a core rules Scout Survey or Exploration specialist has no entry for vacc suit. So I guess Scouts only survey and explore worlds with breathable atmosphere? They can get it by achieving rank 1, so I guess one could say junior scouts are not sent to the more exotic locations.

There is also the randomness of the dice. For example a Navy Engineer gets no Engineering skill in basic training and only has a 1 in 3 chance of gaining engineering when and if they roll on the specialist table. Of course you could be considered a gunner since it is lumped with engineer - gunner is a basic training skill.

The game does have connection skills and a skill package to help round out the characters.

Trying to theorize a reasonable way to make things work, there is the possibility that a skill is not deemed necessary because it is assumed that a expert program would be available - thus giving them the minimal competency necessary.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Previous attempts have only ever got as far as generating a character before packing up at the end of the session, never to return.

This happens way too often, I think. We really need some nice, maybe even full-color, pre-generated characters for Mongoose Traveller that somebody can just download off the Internet and start playing. I'm thinking about posting some myself. If you can get it, try out 1001 Characters and see if there isn't something in there that your players would want to play.

Also, a good character sheet is nice for players. Try the one mentioned in this thread.

 

[Kilgs]

The Skill Packages at the end of chargen are also good. But I have allowed the "bonus skill" for promotion or special training to be chosen by the player to fill gaps.

Another thing to consider is that Vacc Suit is a specialist skill. Chances are that most folks know how to use them in a space-faring society. I mean, most folks can use a computer but lack Computer-0.

Not sure of the situation but did the lack of the skill bar them from putting it on? I would think they're fairly advanced to allow anyone to throw them on and start them up. Functioning/walking/typing in commands to a terminal while wearing one would be a whole different animal and require the skill.

 

[atpollard]

I don't know how much this still applies to Mongoose Traveller, but I suspect that enough of its Classic Traveller roots will make it relavent ...

The skill progression rate indicates that a character earns only about 1 skill per each 1-4 years.
I find it helpful to remember that a skill-1 in Classic Traveller represents the combined experiences gained in 2 to 4 years of working at a job.

Using Vaccsuit-1 (from Classic Traveller) as an example, that skill represents about 2 years or 100 working weeks or 4000 working hours spent doing a job that focused on working in a vacc suit more than any other skill that the character might have learned.

Think of it as the difference between taking a short course in diving and spending 4000 hours working as an underwater welder on an oil drilling platform.

So looking at the character in the opening post, of course he can use a vacc suit to perform normal routine tasks ... the man with the actual vaccsuit skill can work all day in a vacc suit, operating without a tether on the hull of a ship, or jumping from one ship to another. He can repair the hull while the ship is travelling. Hard tasks. Tasks that call for a professional with lots of experience.
YMMV

 

[Dagrill]

Hi to all. Long time lurker but only just registered.

This time round we have a motley crew (as if there is any other sort) and despite attempting to stay on the straight and narrow, for at least the first hour or so of the campaign our first shipment contained dubious weaponry destined for Penkwhar (Lunion subsector/Spinward Marches) though we dropped the stuff of with a third party in Shirene. Shirene being what it is our next shipment is off to Gorram via Capon.

That aside, we’re enjoying the game immensely.

Greetings,

If PDF is Army, then the groundpounders don't learn to operate in Space and have no need of Vacc suits. Marines all get Battledress 0, Battledress is powered Combat Armour, so is the equivalent of a Vacc Suit. You actually need Battledress 1 to us the Battledress though...

Kind Regards

David

 

[WistfulD]

Hi to all. Long time lurker but only just registered.

Been roleplaying for over 30 years and despite being heavily into sci-fi have only just seriously started roleplaying Traveller (Mongoose version) mostly due the group preferring fantasy. Previous attempts have only ever got as far as generating a character before packing up at the end of the session, never to return.

So now I have something to say, thought I would share.

This time round we have a motley crew (as if there is any other sort) and despite attempting to stay on the straight and narrow, for at least the first hour or so of the campaign our first shipment contained dubious weaponry destined for Penkwhar (Lunion subsector/Spinward Marches) though we dropped the stuff of with a third party in Shirene. Shirene being what it is our next shipment is off to Gorram via Capon.

My question though refers to glaring holes in character development such as a PDF commander of 4 terms not having vac-suit but needing it in the second session of the game (resulting in a rather pathetic crawl across a cargo bay filled with a toxic atmosphere). Basically is it normal to start with a 50+ veteran seemingly incapable of a great many things you might have thought they should have been reasonable at or have I simply made a rookie mistake when generating him?

That aside, we’re enjoying the game immensely.

We have no way of knowing if you made a rookie mistake in the generation process. Not however that there are many places other than a character's career rolling where they could have picked up vac suit at skill 0+. If they came from a high tech or space-bound world, for instance.

More broadly, Traveller is on the far end of the random spectrum of character creation, past games like Heroes or Gurps where there is no randomness or games like D&D where you roll attributes but then make most of the rest of the choices yourself.

This mimics reality where ones life evolves organically and you don't get a perfect say in how it unfolds, but creates certain sub-optimal situations for character creation ending with characters who lack useful (some might say vital) abilities.

The idea of someone getting to PDF Commander without vac suit skills is perfectly believable. One, that's an officer, who might not have various field skills vital to a pfc or nco. Two, job specialization in real world professions is such that any given individual might not have specific skills, even those directly related to one's profession, because you work with trained co-workers who perform that role.

Taking a real world example out of the air, an anthropologist might not be able to set up an dig for neanderthal remains because 1) they are a cultural, not physical anthropologist, and 2) they work with survey data, not field work.

Of course none of that helps you when you need to get that specific individual someplace, and the only way to do so is with a vac suit. Some of the fun might be for the rest of the team trying to figure out how to get "the commander" to the rescue shuttle despite "the old warhorse never had to set foot in an EVA suit after 30 years on the job."

Note that a vac suit is a space suit. You or I can wear a space suit. If your character has a trained individual get him into it and get it working, he could be coaxed through a cargo bay. He'd just be clumsy and need someone to come to his aid if he gets in a jam. Thusly:

PFC: "Commander, you've stopped moving. Did you see something?"

Cmdr: "No, I'm just caught on these wires."

PFC: "Just pull back."

Cmdr: "Okay, I wasn't sure if they could puncture the suit."

PFC: "Nope, your fine. Just follow the Sarge and we'll get you past the airlock in no time <mumbles under breath something about being weighed down by brass>."

Cmdr: "What was that?"

PFC: "Nothing, sir!"

See? Story opportunities abound!

 

[Jame]

Greetings,

If PDF is Army, then the groundpounders don't learn to operate in Space and have no need of Vacc suits. Marines all get Battledress 0, Battledress is powered Combat Armour, so is the equivalent of a Vacc Suit. You actually need Battledress 1 to us the Battledress though...

Kind Regards

David

My variation of the Army is that they'd be tasked with operating at any point between The Ground and System Edge if they've got high enough TL, so they'd learn Vac Suit if necessary.

Though this is me saying that an Army is a system defense force, not just an on-planet force.

 

[McPerth]

If PDF is Army, then the groundpounders don't learn to operate in Space and have no need of Vacc suits.

Even so, vacc suit is used to wear combat armor (according page 87 you need vacc suit 0 to operate it), so it should be quite a common skill among TL12+ troops, and it's not in any of the Army's tables in the CB...

 

[pendragonman]

Even so, vacc suit is used to wear combat armor (according page 87 you need vacc suit 0 to operate it), so it should be quite a common skill among TL12+ troops, and it's not in any of the Army's tables in the CB...

That is, unless Combat Armor is not issued to Army personnel. Think 40K, Marines have powered armor, Imperial Guard do not. since Imperial Guard is the Army equivalent...


Perhaps combat armor is just too expensive to issue to the vast numbers of army personnel.

 

[McPerth]

That is, unless Combat Armor is not issued to Army personnel. Think 40K, Marines have powered armor, Imperial Guard do not. since Imperial Guard is the Army equivalent...

Even if not all units are so equiped, some will be, and I don't believe it would be event dependent the skill to use it...

I don't ask to include it in the service skills table (so giving it in he basic training, though I'd find it correct for high TL troops), but to give some way to learn it.

One of the problems of those tables is that there is no TL modifier (as were in CT Mercenary), so, if you include it, even TL 5-6 (about WWI-WWII) troops could achieve it, and if you don't, not even TL 15 tropos can.

And, BTW, same happens with battledress, so it seems batledress equiped troops outside the Marines are quite rare to inexistent (as not even in the CB event tables can you achieve it. In fact, you can only achieve the skill through repeated benefits in mustering out)

Perhaps combat armor is just too expensive to issue to the vast numbers of army personnel.

About 10% the cost of a battledress, for TL11 CA vs TL 13 BD, according the same table...

 

[pendragonman]

Even if not all units are so equiped, some will be, and I don't believe it would be event dependent the skill to use it...

I don't ask to include it in the service skills table (so giving it in he basic training, though I'd find it correct for high TL troops), but to give some way to learn it.

One of the problems of those tables is that there is no TL modifier (as were in CT Mercenary), so, if you include it, even TL 5-6 (about WWI-WWII) troops could achieve it, and if you don't, not even TL 15 tropos can.

And, BTW, same happens with battledress, so it seems batledress equiped troops outside the Marines are quite rare to inexistent (as not even in the CB event tables can you achieve it. In fact, you can only achieve the skill through repeated benefits in mustering out)



About 10% the cost of a battledress, for TL11 CA vs TL 13 BD, according the same table...

Ok 10% of BD. Now multiply that by the 100's of thousands in a single medium pop planet's army. Now compare to the much smaller sized Marine organization...

 

[McPerth]

Ok 10% of BD. Now multiply that by the 100's of thousands in a single medium pop planet's army. Now compare to the much smaller sized Marine organization...

As I said, not all units, but at least a part of the units would (be them shock units, elite ones, or whatever), and I guess most of them would be so trained (at least at level 0).

The point I'm defending is that there should be more possibilities to learn vacc suit than just one single events result, being it necessary to use such valuable piece of equipement.

My interpretation of the smaller armies as TL raises (from 5-6 up, IIRC) shown in the CT and MT tables represent just this higher equipement costs and increased combat value given by it.

To give you an example, I guess most of Rhylanor troops (more so as it has a very thin atmosphere) would be CA equiped, while its best units are BD equiped. As tables for army are, a very small percentage would be CA trained, and none of it would be BD trained.

 

[CosmicGamer]

If PDF is Army, then the groundpounders don't learn to operate in Space and have no need of Vacc suits.

And thus the reason why most mining colonies and other locations without breathable atmosphere are unorganized lawless frontiers - there are no ground forces to maintain order. :devil:

 

[aramis]

As a general rule of thumb - and I've checked several different nations' standards...

1 police officer per 1000 people is sufficient for generally lawful societies with higher authority and military on hand. 3-5 per 1000, counting overlaps, is more normal. 1 per 100 people is typical for occupying forces

 

[WistfulD]

I think that the general assumption has been that if it requires sealed armor, it falls under the category of marine.

CosmicGamer, if we need police officers who know vac suits, we probably need beat reporters who know vac suits to fill the local 5:00 news broadcasts with crime reports. We also need criminals who know vac suits to commit the crimes that the police are there to stop. And people to rob to justify the criminals being out there in their space suits. Maybe we need an avenue to vac suit proficiency that isn't career-bound, don't you think?

 

[whulorigan]

Maybe we need an avenue to vac suit proficiency that isn't career-bound, don't you think?

In MgT, certain characters receive Vacc-Suit-0 during CharGen depending on their homeworld background (Vacuum/Trace atm worlds and asteroid belt mainworlds, IIRC).

 

[CosmicGamer]

CosmicGamer, if we need police officers who know vac suits...

Sorry if there was any confusion, but I was not talking about law enforcement. I stated "ground forces" and was referring to, in fact quoting, Dagrill's post regarding the Army not needing vac suit skill.

 

[Shonner]

My question though refers to glaring holes in character development such as a PDF commander of 4 terms not having vac-suit but needing it in the second session of the game (resulting in a rather pathetic crawl across a cargo bay filled with a toxic atmosphere). Basically is it normal to start with a 50+ veteran seemingly incapable of a great many things you might have thought they should have been reasonable at or have I simply made a rookie mistake when generating him?

The referee decides when a skill check is needed. The fun part is role-playing ANY result from one.