High Guard: Kinunir vs Zhodani Frigate

[Jeffr0]

Here are the ships:

BC-9514 Kinunir BC-A2447G2-000510-50202-0 MCr 1336.63            1250 tons
      batteries bearing           2 2 2                           Crew=45.
              batteries           2 2 2                             TL=15.
Passengers=O. Low=O. Cargo=63. Fuel=587.5. EP=87.5. Agility=l. Marines=35.

Pinnace         KT-0204421-000000-30000-0 MCr21.7                  35 tons
Passengers=34. Low=O. Cargo=17. Fuel=I .4. Agility=4. Crew=2. TL=15. Battery=l.




Patrol Frigate  FP-67424F2-030000-50003-1 MCr 493.87              600 tons
      batteries bearing     3     1   1                              TL=13
              batteries     3     1   1           Crew 18 (incl 10 pilots)
Cargo=24.15. Fuel=264. EP=24. Agility=2. One 50-ton fuel launch. Ten 8-ton ftrs.

Fighter         FM-0106D21-000000-00003-0 MCr19.155                 8 tons
one battery of missiles                                     TL=13. Crew=1.
Cargo=O. Fuel= 1.04. EP=1.04. Agility=6.

Initiative: The Kinunir has the "faster fleet." 1d6 vs 1d6+1 favoring the Kinunur. [Edited]

Neither ship has armor (!) The frigate's dispersed structure means all fighters are in combat immediately, but the fighters are dead meat against the Kinunir, though, so they should remain in the frigate.

Kinunir has computer G, Frigate computer F, fighters computer 2.
Kinunir has tonnage A, Frigate 6, fighter 0

[Edited to remove bogus to-hit numbers.]

Hm.

Pretty boring fight.

 

[atpollard]

Here are the ships:
Neither ship has armor (!)

Hm.
Pretty boring fight.

Since neither ship has armor, use LBB2 starship combat (and the fighters).

 

[Ron Gianti]

I haven't gotten to use HG combat yet, though I've read it a few times.

Why are the fighters dead meat? Can't they launch a couple missiles each?

Why can't the ships hit each other?

 

[Jeffr0]

Corrections:

I think this fixes it. The Kinunir should whomp the Frigate.

Modifiers:

Kinunir to Frigate: DM +1 for computer, DM -2 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -2
Frigate to Kinunir: DM -1 for computer, DM -4 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -6

Kinunir to Fighter: DM +8 for computer, DM -6 for agility, DM -2 for size. => DM 0 (!) [Edited to fix arithmetic]
Fighter to Kinunir: DM -8 for computer, DM -4 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -13


Short Range:
Frigate missiles and lasers are out of range.
Kinunir Missiles on 6+ DM -3-- hits on 9 or better.
Kinunir Lasers on 7+ DM -2-- hits on 9 or better.
Kinunir Particle Accelerators on 8+ DM -2-- hits on 10 or better.

Long Range:
Frigate Missiles on 6+ DM -6-- hits on 12 or better.
Frigate Lasers on 8+ DM -7 for range-- can't hit.
Kinunir Missiles on 6+ DM -2-- hits on 8 or better.
Kinunir Lasers on 7+ DM -3-- hits on 10 or better.
Kinunir Particle Accelerators on 8+ DM -2-- hits on 10 or better.

 

[Jeffr0]

Why are the fighters dead meat? Can't they launch a couple missiles each?

I think the computer rule kills it.

Agility ratings and computer differentials seem to be the deciding factor at this scale-- unless someone happens to have monster weapons....

 

[far-trader]

...Initiative: Joe has the "faster fleet." 1d6 vs 1d6+1 favoring the Joe Frigate.

I think the Kinunir gets the Initiative bonus, not the Frigate (based on highest agility). Unless the Frigate launches fighters to counter the bonus by having the larger fleet.

Since neither ship has armor, use LBB2 starship combat (and the fighters).

Seems the way to go, especially for two (arguably) Book 2 meme designs. Doubly so if PCs are involved. And don't forget computer programming. Yes it's (implied) required even in Book 5 combat.

...Why are the fighters dead meat? Can't they launch a couple missiles each?

If I recall correctly the fighters in question are laser armed only, silly for Book 5 combat but there you go.

As a side note I also seem to recall the Frigate has an ace up it's sleeve. The fighters gain a bonus for being Psionically piloted and assisted in attack. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Jeffr0]

In Brilliant Lances, the fighters would be able to launch missiles and then pass them over to the frigate's fire control. That would make them much more useful in battle.

Also, missile using fleets should be able to set up screens of deployed missiles... setting up a pretty powerful first turn attack given proper maneuver/tactics. The first turn of combat should technically be handled a little differently because of this.

Laser armed fighters (and the pinnace) should be able to at least provide additional point-defense protection to their ships.

Alas, High-Guard seems to be "unaware" of this stuff....

 

[Jeffr0]

I think the Kinunir gets the Initiative bonus, not the Frigate (based on highest agility). Unless the Frigate launches fighters to counter the bonus by having the larger fleet.

Yes that's right.

If I recall correctly the fighters in question are laser armed only, silly for Book 5 combat but there you go.

No, these are missile armed fighters.

 

[pendragonman]

Corrections: ...



Kinunir to Fighter: DM +8 for computer, DM -6 for agility, DM -2 for size. => DM -6

Should total to a DM of zero, shouldn't it? +8-6-2=0
Or is the size modifier wrong? I don't have HG handy just now to check...

 

[Jeffr0]

Should total to a DM of zero, shouldn't it? +8-6-2=0
Or is the size modifier wrong? I don't have HG handy just now to check...

Dratted arithmetic! Doh!

 

[atpollard]

Here's my 2 cent analysis:

I haven't gotten to use HG combat yet, though I've read it a few times.
Why are the fighters dead meat? Can't they launch a couple missiles each?
Why can't the ships hit each other?

FIGHTERS:
The fighters have 1 ‘battery’ of missiles to launch in each combat turn. From the Missile Attack Table (HG, p.45) a factor 3 missile needs a base 5+ to hit (on 2D6). The Fighter has a Model 2 comp and the target has a model 7fib computer for a –5 to the attack roll (requires 5+ on 2D6-5). The target has an agility of 1 for an additional –1 to the attack roll (requires 5+ on 2D6-6). The target has a USP size of A for an additional –1 to the attack roll (requires 5+ on 2D6-7). At short range, the missiles suffer an additional –1 to the attack roll (requires 5+ on 2D6-8).

Since the best roll on 2D6 is 12, the best possible result at short range is a 4 (which misses) and the chance of rolling exactly a 12 (to allow a hit at long range) is only 1 in 36 (less than a 3% chance of hitting). Those missiles which are able to ‘hit’, must still roll a 7+ on 2D6-5 (1 in 36) to penetrate the target’s laser defensive fire (the -5 is due to relative computer size). If the missiles are nuclear, then they must also roll 12+ on 2D6-5 (the -5 is due to relative computer size) to penetrate the target’s Nuclear Damper.

Conclusion: The fighters need to roll back to back 12s on 2D6 to hit in the best possible situation (and hitting is often impossible), so they should stay away from this suicide fight.


KINUNIR vs FRIGATE:
Kinunir has factor 2 missiles (to hit = 6+ on 2D6) and Frigate has factor 3 missiles (to hit = 5+ on 2D6).
Kinunir has 7fib comp (+1 to hit) and Frigate has 6fib comp (-1 to hit).
Frigate has agility 2 (-2 to be hit) and Kinunir has agility 1 (-1 to be hit).
Frigate is size 6 (-1 to be hit) and Kinunir is size A (-1 to be hit).

Kinunir requires 6+ on 2D6-2 to hit the Frigate and an 8+ on 2D6+1 to penetrate the defensive lasers and an 8+ on 2D6+1 to penetrate the defensive sand.
Frigate requires 5+ on 2D6-3 to hit the Kinunir and an 7+ on 2D6-1 to penetrate the defensive lasers.

Conclusion: The ships can hit each other, but not very often. It will be a long fight with LOTS of die rolls.

 

[atpollard]

Corrections:

I think this fixes it. The Kinunir should whomp the Frigate.

Modifiers:

Kinunir to Frigate: DM +1 for computer, DM -2 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -2
Frigate to Kinunir: DM -1 for computer, DM -4 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -6

The Kinunir is agility 1 ... it's pinnace is agility 4.
Frigate to Kinunir: DM -1 for computer, DM -1 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -3

 

[Jeffr0]

#$&(&($*)#!

I go cross-eyed looking at these USP's!

ARGH!

 

[Jeffr0]

I don't think sand should affect missiles.

Mathematically, missiles can't impact a ship that has any point defense.

 

[atpollard]

Kinunir to Fighter: DM +8 for computer, DM -6 for agility, DM -2 for size. => DM 0 (!) [Edited to fix arithmetic]
Fighter to Kinunir: DM -8 for computer, DM -4 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -13

For Computers, Kinunir is model 7(fib) and Fighter is model 2 (+/-5 to hit)

Kinunir to Fighter: DM +5 for computer, DM -6 for agility, DM -2 for size. => DM -3
Fighter to Kinunir: DM -5 for computer, DM -1 for agility, DM -1 for size. => DM -7

Remember also that the Fighter has a factor 3 missile (5+ to hit) and the Kinunir has a factor 2 missile (6+ to hit). The Kinunir will still win, the fighter can just hit by rolling a 12.

 

[Jeffr0]

Oh wait... another bug:

"Eight dual beam laser turrets (8 tons; MCrl6; 16 energy points) are installed
and grouped into two batteries of factor 4 each, which tech level bumps to factor
5. Two particle accelerator turrets (6 tons; MCr6; '10 energy points) are installed
as two batteries at factor-2. Finally, two triple missile turrets are installed (2 tons;
MCr4.5; no energy points) as two batteries of factor-3."

The USP for the Kinunir does not list the correct beam rating for the laser turrets.


Edit: Or maybe not; Like I know how to read a USP!?

 

[atpollard]

I don't think sand should affect missiles.

Makes perfect sense to me, but HG says ...

"Missiles must achieve the to hit number (or greater) on two dice. If a hit is achieved, then sandcasters, beam weapons (laser and energy; each type uses the beam section), repulsors, and dampers must be penetrated (throw the number shown or greater on two dice). If all throws succeed, go to the damage tables." (p. 45)

From Striker, you get the impression that Sand is more like LOTS of shotgun pellets - it is a kinetic kill against missiles and prismatic against lasers.

Mathematically, missiles can't impact a ship that has any point defense.

Look at the Kinunir vs Fighter, that computer number made all the difference in the world for chances of hitting. Plus each defensive battery can only target one battery of incoming missiles. An attacker (or multiple atackers) could overwhelm a ship's defenses by shooting more batteries of missiles than the defender has batteries to respond with. Then the lasers (for example) could only attack SOME of the incoming missiles.

 

[atpollard]

I go cross-eyed looking at these USP's!

The USP for the Kinunir does not list the correct beam rating for the laser turrets.

I hate all the Universal Profiles with a passion!!!
Look at LBB2, why can't they write the ships and worlds as a simple paragraph that anyone could read without looking up the key and going cross-eyed counting letters/numbers after the dash.

The USP demands that errors be made in the heat of a game - looking at the wrong column or the wrong row.

 

[far-trader]

The Kinunir is agility 1 ... it's pinnace is agility 4.

D'OH! Caught me too

 

[DonM]

I hate all the Universal Profiles with a passion!!!
Look at LBB2, why can't the write the ships and worlds as a simple paragraph that anyone could read without looking up the key and going cross-eyed counting letters/numbers after the dash.

The USP demands that errors be made in the heat of a game - looking at the wrong column or the wrong row.

As much as I love High Guard, I do agree here.

Has anyone ever come up with an alternative format that didn't boggle the eyes (and don't point me to Power Projection... I didn't like SFB's SSDs either).

The last ship damage system I really liked was good ol' Starfire (and not that Ultra stuff... the pocket editions).