highguard RANDOM ship generator

[sid6.7]

okay moving on...

it seems SHEN 1.8 has went over okay
and there seems to be no real BIG problems...

so with time on my hand i have started making
a RANDOM highguard ship generator(35% done)...

here is what a typical HG ship will look like
in its file:
--------------------------------------------

Name: QWERTY Tonnage: 1000000

ST - Y 7 6 6 6 4 4 - 0 0 1 1 0 0 - 0 0 0 0 0 - 0


Spinal Mount: none.......Staterooms: 12867
Minimum Crew: 5735......Cargo( 122593 )
Troops: 20000
Fighters: 0
Missles: 0
Fuel( 600060 )


how does that seem so far?

does it make sense? bearing in mind
that alot of parts are NOT finished yet...

i dont know if i can squeeze the numbers closer
together as it seems to force 2 spaces between
items....

1 concern i have is troop numbers is that considered crew?
or is it seperate? and also they
seem way too high at 2 per 100 tons....

bear in mind also i have 1st edition book 5...

 

[far-trader]

Wow, cool!

No problem with the 2 spaces.

IIRC the designs in Supp 9 have troops seperate and in addition to the crew rating (the way you have it).

The only problem I see at the moment is the differences between 1st and 2nd editions, especially the calculations for weapon factors. That part is considerably different, in presentation at least, the actual factors may be close for like inputs.

Have to review the books for the other differences but I don't think there's that much. Will try to PM you a brief on that tomorrow night.

 

[aramis]

Sid:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">A$ = A$ + UPP$(value%)
print a$

Function UPP$(value%)
out$ =
select case value%
case 0:
out$ = "0"
break
case 1:
out$ = 2
...
default:
out$ = "_"
end select
UPP$ = out$
end function</pre>[/QUOTE]Or,

print using "!"; a$

 

[far-trader]

Had a look at the differences between 1st and 2nd editions last night for the first time in a while and I'm half convinced that sticking to 1st edition might be the way to go for a couple reasons.

First, it feels closer to Book 2 designs in a couple ways so it would be a better match for SHEN and implementation in a Book 2 design game.

Second, there are a few 2nd edition spreadsheet and such design programs out there already, but nothing to do 1st edition. For the obvious reason of course that it has been superceded. But 1st edition might be used to produce alien or alternative designs for 2nd edition games.

 

[sid6.7]

BAYS

the rate of 1 bay per 1000t
seems a little high such as
you can get as high as 1000
bays...

would a ship realisticly
use every bay? also if thats true
the rating for a weapon would 99% be
ZERO for none OR 9...nothing between

same for turrets at 1 per 100 tons
for remaining tonnage beyond what
you used for bays...


IE...my numbers i am coming up with
beyond 50,000t are too huge...
50 bays & 500 turrets, 100 bays & 1000 turrets
or 200 bays 0 turrets, 400 bays 0 turrets
or 5000 turrets 0 bays...or any combo you
want...etc..etc..

of course i am trying to do RANDOM selection
so i want to make it as simple as possible
which is forcing HG into the program rather
then forcing my program into HG...

per 1st edition book 5

what would be canon? real?

 

[whartung]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
what would be canon? real?

Well, for one thing, it wouldn't be random.

You simply don't see 27,357 ton ships with 634 turrets and 113 bays, J6, M1, and 3 staterooms.

Just like you won't see an SDB with 3 turrets, one with 1 Beam, 1 Pulse, 1 Missle, the next with 2 Casters and a Missile, the third with 1 Pulse and 1 Caster.

It's one thing to select a randomly from a group of prepared ships for an encounter. It's quite another to have purely random ships. While random works for characters, and "OK" for worlds, Ships are very Ying Yang and important to balance. There's simply too many variable with ships.

If you want then you should look at the weapons charts, decide, perhaps, "I want this ship to have Factor-9 lasers", and figure out what that means. Stuff like that. But overall, I think the number of reasonable and viable ships you can get with random generator are limited, and most of them would simply look like they were inspired by the Winchester House.

 

[sid6.7]

oh i think you'll be suprised at how normal
they will be when i am done...if anything i tend
to make things lean...rather then a freakishly
sized/equipped craft...

you can get some(fair) amount of
randomization even with canon data...

so it still begs the question whats
everyone doing for HG ships they make?
so i can get some general idea of
number of bays/turrets per tonnage....

i supose i could "fake it" and slap
numbers 1-9 into the slots but it
probably wont be kosher with bays
or turrets #'s. i'd rather beat my
head first trying to go canon.. for
a bit anyways...

 

[sid6.7]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Sid:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">A$ = A$ + UPP$(value%)
print a$

Function UPP$(value%)
out$ =
select case value%
case 0:
out$ = "0"
break
case 1:
out$ = 2
...
default:
out$ = "_"
end select
UPP$ = out$
end function</pre>

Or,

print using "!"; a$ [/b][/quote]thanks aramis...i'll try this...

 

[GypsyComet]

If you are still waffling between HG 1e and 2e, please consider a toggle to do either in the same program. By preference, a toggle that can itself be randomized, but which should also be setable by the user.

 

[far-trader]

Your numbers for armament are not that far off, these are huge ships with massive firepower. Don't forget some not insignificant tonnage will go to defenses as well (armor and screens). And IN Ships are generally built to a Jump 4 and Maneuver 6 standard. Turrets are always(?) triple mounts.

I put together a little outline based primarily on Supplement 9 "Fighting Ships" with a (very) little interpretation of my own.

-------

Imperial Navy Ships are grouped into four major types:

Escorts - Generally between 1Ktons and 5Ktons the usual employment of Escorts is for light support of Cruisers or merchant convoy protection. Escorts are only lightly armored (f0 - f5) and do not mount spinal weapons. Some will mount small bay weapons (50tons x1-3) but for the most fill their hardpoints with turrets.

Cruisers - Typically in the range of 20Ktons to 100Ktons these are the smallest ships to mount spinal weapons. They are usually slightly better armored (f5 - f10) than Escorts and in addition to the spinal weapon will usually fit a few large bay weapons (100tons x1-6) and several small bay weapons (50tons x10-30) and fill out the remaining hardpoints with turret batteries. The mission for Cruisers is usually commerce raiding or fire support for planetary invasions. Some Cruisers are more multi-role and carry on-board fighter squadrons (50ton heavy fighters x40 or 80) and launch tube(s) (1 or 2), or landing craft (instead of heavy fighters) and Marines. Each landing craft can carry 50 Marines and gear.

Carriers - With the same tonnage range as Cruisers of 20Ktons to 100Ktons Carriers are lighter on armor (f0 -f5) but can be as well armed. While they don't often mount a spinal weapon they may but they will usually just fit a few large bay weapons (100tons x1-6) and several small bay weapons (50tons x10-30) and fill out the remaining hardpoints with triple turret batteries. This will leave room for more heavy fighter squadrons (50ton fighters x100-300) and launch tube(s) (1 per 100) or landing craft and Marines. Heavy Carriers, often simply called Transports, are built to carry SDBs or Battle Riders.

Battleships - Also called Dreadnaughts these are the largest ships built and are between 100Ktons and 500Ktons. They are also the most heavily armored (f10 - f15) and in addition to the biggest spinal mounts available will fit several large bay weapons (100tons x10-60) and many small bay weapons (50tons x50-500) and fill out the remaining hardpoints with triple turret batteries. In addition to this the biggest Battleships will often carry their own Carrier strength heavy fighter squadrons (50ton fighters x100-300) and launch tube(s) (1 per 100) but not landing craft and Marines.

 

[The Oz]

Here's how I'd suggest "filling" ships:

Escorts-high jump and G ratings (at least 3 if TL allows, and usually higher) first, then give them all the bay and turret weapons they can hold, then a big computer, and finally the remaining space for defenses, mostly armor with only light screens (nuc dampers and meson screens).

Cruisers-good jump ratings and G ratings (3+ if possible), then a small spinal mount, max out the turrets and bay weapons, then decent armor (at least f-4, but not more than f-10), the best computer available at that TL, and then decent screens (at least f-3, if available).

Battleships-the biggest spinal mount available, plus maximum bay and turret weapons, then the best computer and the best screens available. Then give it at least f-10 armor and if possible the max armor available. Then it gets at least J-2 but rarely more than J-3 (and never more than J-4), and finally it gets as much acceleration (and Agility) as possible in the space left.

Escorts will rarely have any space left over (if they do it should be left as cargo). Any extra space in cruisers should be split between cargo and small craft (not necessarily fighters) while battleships should have some cargo, troop space (plus small craft to land them) and fighters.

All ships should have at least 1 small craft, and larger vessels should have more.

All of this varies by TL, of course. At lower TLs (12-) you can't use up as much space on jump but the increased size of powerplants and armor use up much of the space you don't need for jump fuel. At higher TLs (13+) the balancing act between jump, power, and fuel usually keeps the jump rating for heavily-armored warships to J-3 just so you have enough space for that armor. This table shows how I think the Jump progression for warships goes according to TL.
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">TL Escort Cruiser Battleship
10- J-1(x4?) J-1(x3?) J-1(x2?)
11 J-2(x2?) J-2(x2?) J-2
12 J-3 J-3 J-2 or J-3
13 J-4 J-3 or J-4 J-3
14 J-4 or J-5 J-3 or J-4 J-3
15 J-4+ J-4+ J-3 or J-4</pre>[/QUOTE](xN) means that a ship might have enough fuel for N number of jumps.

 

[mike wightman]

Here are the TL15 warships from S9:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Tons Class J M/A A# Spinal
30kt Gionetti CL 5 5/5 0 M-J
50kt Arakoine CS 3 4/4 0 M-N
50kt Ghalalk CA 4 5/5 5 P-H
75kt Atlantic CH 4 5/5 10 M-N

29kt Skimkish LC 4 2/2 1 -
75kt Wind SC 3 6/6 6 M-E
100kt Antiama FC 4 2/2 2 -

500kt Tigress BB 3 6/6 15 M-T
200kt Plankwell BB 4 5/5 10 M-T
200kt Kokirrak BB 3 6/6 12 M-T</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[sid6.7]

thanks guys this is the info i was looking for...


okay, this generator is a little different from SHEN
in that the only user input is tonnage they want,
then that builds the random ship from that....
i have it now where the user inputs tonnage
from 5000t to 1 millt....which works fine so far
i do limit some items based on tonnage for the
smaller vessels...but allow it in higher tonage vessels...

i did this because there are 18+ primary
and 18+ qualifiers in ship TYPES...so i did
it randomly on TYPES as i didnt look forward
to building a menu that has 18 x 18 x 18 = 5000+ possibilities....so i randomly generate those 5000
possibilites instead..so you can get some
interesting types..IE

a merchant crusier, escort cruiser
a gunned gig, troop tanker, armored barge
a decoy corvette a gunned liner...

so would the numbers above be good for any
ship TYPE? not just the ones you've specified?
IE...could say a armored merchant have the escort
items on it? or a heavy frigate have what a cruiser has?...

or would it be better to go to a SHEN type
menu and only build 10 random types or so?

or should i not generate a ship TYPE and let
the user do that after they print off the ship?

these ships are a generic TL...IE...since its random,i'm generating items that wouldnt reeally
go with a tech 7 hull/shipyard so when you do get
a ship with hi-tech items you can assume TL 14-15
if a ship has no TL 14-15 items you could assume
from TL 7 - 11 or so...

does this make sense...would this be workable
or playable?

again trying to avoid have to build a menu for each tech level for every ship item/type...
IE...
7 TL x 20 ship items x 5000 ship types = 700,000
configurations...i'd never be able to finish it...


just some thoughts...any advice is welcome...

 

[far-trader]

I think that would work nicely. The different ship types (i.e. Merchant Cruiser) can make sense with some imagination (cross border trade in unfriendly space) and will help fill out the "other" ship types missing in many Big Ship TUs (most examples are IN).

Some of them will lead to interesting thoughts...

...a troop tanker - a supply ship that carries fresh troops and fuel for a squadron

...an armored barge - a bulk hauler for dangerous goods (the armor keeps the bad stuff in rather than out)

...a decoy corvette - why that's a Q-ship of course, it's a corvette that doesn't look like a corvette, or...

...a decoy corvette - a ship that looks like a corvette but is actually something else, hoping to scare off trouble by looking dangerous

 

[sid6.7]

okay here is how far i've gotten in alpha
--------------------------------------
Name: QWERTY Tonnage: 456456

DP - T 6 6 6 6 6 4 - 1 0 2 4 0 2 - 5 3 1 H 3 - 0


Spinal Mount: meson......Staterooms: 6612
Minimum Crew: 4097 ......Cargo( 51411 )
Troops: 9128 ............Jump: 6
Fighters: 0 ............G's: 6
Missles: 0
Fuel( 273933 ) ............Cost: 0 MCr

Bays: 152 (part.) 152 (plasma) 152 (rep.)
Turrets: 2039 (3X beam) 2039 (3X missle)

Vehicles:
(1)Fuel Shuttle,(2)Shuttle,(4)Cutter,(2)GCarriers,(2)AFV
--------------------------------------------

probably in a day or 2 i'll release the beta 1.0

look it over and if you see problems let me know,
parts that are missing are NOT finished

i have NOT finished adding in all the wieghts
namely fire control for all the turrets

right now i am max'ing out the bays and turrets
just to make sure i am doing the numbers right
i'll apply your folks sugeestions later...

i DONT like mega ships but i have allowed
1 of each weapon type or if i allow 1 i
take away another...

i'm not real happy with my generic vehicles
thinking along the lines of 5000-1000000 tons
what would be a good genric amount of vehicles
for a ship?...then also think stream VS nonstream


you read the BAYS as 100 ton, 50 ton 10 ton

and the 3X means triple turret...for now..

name suggestions; need more or vote for these
---------------

10 ton bays or 10TB 'so thats its clear is HG1

HG1SHEN

first guard or FGG

SHEN2

travellers HG or THG

HG1

these were submitted by users of SHEN

 

[sid6.7]

here we go

a new SIMPLE RANDOM high guard ship maker is ready here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gal24/

its in the folder called TICDOFFUS


this is 1.0 beta..

NO Pictures, just data...

im sure there are bugs just let me know...

 

[sid6.7]

version 1.2 for FGG(first guard) HG random ships

----------------------------
several folks request the ability to force
building of a carrier: DONE

example: fleet/fast carrier(light)
Name: QWERTY Tonnage: 456456

CF - T 7 6 6 6 4 4 - 1 0 1 1 0 2 - 4 2 K 0 2 - C


Spinal Mount: particle...... Staterooms: 6612
Minimum Crew: 4097........ Cargo( 50086 )
Troops: 9128 ............ Jump: 6
Fighters: 37 ............ G's: 6
Missles: 6540 ............ Scoops: No
Fuel( 273933 ) ............ Cost: 511886 MCr

Bays: 45 (meson) 91 (plasma) 114 (rep.)
Turrets: 1090 (3X beam) 1090 (3X missle)

Vehicles:
(1)Fuel Shuttle,(2)Shuttle,(4)Cutter,(2)GCarriers,(2)AFV

-----------------------------------
i've incorporated all the suggests to my
best ability on numbers of bays and turret
numbers: DONE

i reduced overall bays to 20% of total allowed:
100t bay are about 10% of allowed
50t bays are about 20% of allowed
10t bays are about 30% of allowed

i reduced all turrets to 25% of total allowed

-----------------------

i forgot fuel scoops if streamlined: DONE


any bugs or constructive suggestions welcome

download it at link:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gal24/