Historical IN fleet figures?

[rancke]

Does anybody have any guesstimates (or genuine estimates) about how many fleets the Imperium had at various stages of its early days?

In Year 0 (Milieu 0)?
In Year 100 (Pacification Campaigns)?
In Year 200 (Julian War)?
In Year 300 (Vargr Campaigns)?
In Year 400 (Ilelish Revolt)?
In Year 500?


Currently I'm assuming that by Year 600, the Imperium had about the current number of subsectors with roughly one fleet per subsector. During the Civil War the number of fleets would go up sharply (that's where the duplicate fleet numbers originate) only to be reduced again after the war. But before that the Imperium would have had fewer subsectors and I think perhaps some fleets would cover multiple subsectors.


Hans

 

[Swiftbrook]

MegaTraveller Q&A
I noticed in MTJ#3 that Vicennes has 120,000 tons of ships allocated for antipiracy/patrol operations. How can I estimate the tonnage of ships for other planets? -M.S.
There is an interesting tendency in Traveller we notice from time to time: the desire to reduce everything to formula and leave nothing to imagination or judgement. We came up with the number 120,000 tons from the air. Just made it up -- no formulas, no computer programs, no tables on which we rolled dice. Surprised? You shouldn't be.
{snip}
-Joe D. Fugate Sr.

Interesting how some tendencies don't change even after 21 years.

 

[rancke]

Interesting how some tendencies don't change even after 21 years.

Not helpful.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

Does anybody have any guesstimates (or genuine estimates) about how many fleets the Imperium had at various stages of its early days?

In Year 0 (Milieu 0)?
In Year 100 (Pacification Campaigns)?
In Year 200 (Julian War)?
In Year 300 (Vargr Campaigns)?
In Year 400 (Ilelish Revolt)?
In Year 500?


Currently I'm assuming that by Year 600, the Imperium had about the current number of subsectors with roughly one fleet per subsector. During the Civil War the number of fleets would go up sharply (that's where the duplicate fleet numbers originate) only to be reduced again after the war. But before that the Imperium would have had fewer subsectors and I think perhaps some fleets would cover multiple subsectors.


Hans

Hans, replying to your request for "have any guesstimates", I'd say substantially more fleets were necessary.

J4 wasn't available so more J2 ships/fleets would have been required to patrol the same area at about half the 'speed'. Given the J4 vs J2 per area to be covered, FOUR times the ships would be required. The subsector reduces to four quadrants for the density of ships to remain the same.

I know you don't care much for real world examples but think number of Army Divisions required to operate during WW1 & WW2 verses today, with greater mobility and range of action, for the same combat coverage.

 

[rancke]

J4 wasn't available so more J2 ships/fleets would have been required to patrol the same area at about half the 'speed'.

What happened to J3 fleets? J3 is available from the dawn of the Imperium and J4 becomes available in 400. The ships used for patrolling an area would be patrol ships -- a very small part of a fleet in terms of tonnage.

Given the J4 vs J2 per area to be covered, FOUR times the ships would be required. The subsector reduces to four quadrants for the density of ships to remain the same.

Why does the density of ships need to be the same?

Also, the Imprium didn't cover as much space to begin with, nor did it have as big a tax base.

I know you don't care much for real world examples...

I don't?

I'm fine with real world examples as long as I think the analogy is sound or at least not blatantly unsound. I'm the one that advocates establishing IN flag officer numbers by comparing with the USN, remember?

...but think number of Army Divisions required to operate during WW1 & WW2 verses today, with greater mobility and range of action, for the same combat coverage.

How do you figure the analogy between Army Divisions and interstellar fleets?


Hans

 

[Vladika]

How do you figure the analogy between Army Divisions and interstellar fleets
Hans

This was simply to show how increased technology, power and maneuver allows far fewer assets (Earth Army or INS Navy) to do the same job in the same area of operations.

As for density I feel that if you need X ships per parsec you still need X ships per parsec. If earlier ships were slower, more are needed to have continual coverage. (Assumes you needed the coverage to start with, which I do, or they wouldn't have begun with it.)

 

[rancke]

As for density I feel that if you need X ships per parsec you still need X ships per parsec. If earlier ships were slower, more are needed to have continual coverage. (Assumes you needed the coverage to start with, which I do, or they wouldn't have begun with it.)

But even if we disregard the fact that 'one fleet' is a pretty vague unit of measurement for number of ships, "one fleet per subsector" seems more likely to be a political decision than an operational one (if 'operational' is the word I want). That is to say, the fact that the Imperium has one fleet per subsector (more or less) in the Classic Era does not prove that, say, one fleet per quadrant (quarter sector) would not be workable.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

But even if we disregard the fact that 'one fleet' is a pretty vague unit of measurement for number of ships, "one fleet per subsector" seems more likely to be a political decision than an operational one (if 'operational' is the word I want). That is to say, the fact that the Imperium has one fleet per subsector (more or less) in the Classic Era does not prove that, say, one fleet per quadrant (quarter sector) would not be workable.


Hans

I guess I was vague or unclear in my initial wording. I meant to state that if 1 Fleet per sector was good in the Classic Era then 4 Fleets, as you aptly stated, would be needed in the earlier era. (One per quarter sector).

 

[rancke]

I guess I was vague or unclear in my initial wording. I meant to state that if 1 Fleet per sector was good in the Classic Era then 4 Fleets, as you aptly stated, would be needed in the earlier era. (One per quarter sector).

What we have in the Classic Era is 16 fleets per sector, which by your logic would require 64 fleets per sector back in Milieu 0. I don't think your logic is necessarily sound, though. Your J2 fleet vs. J4 fleet premise should be J3 fleet vs. J4 fleet for a start. And the fact that the Imperium has one fleet per subsector in 1100 does not prove that it needs one fleet per subsector for optimum coverage, let along minimum. One fleet per subsector could be a political decision (It would be a simplifying assumption that the Imperium has always used one fleet per subsector as its basic strategy, though).


Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Span of control, logistics, budget constraints, personnel crunch.

If the IN is trying to maintain the same or even larger numbers of ships, they'd by nature be cheaper and smaller.

 

[rancke]

Span of control, logistics, budget constraints, personnel crunch.

If the IN is trying to maintain the same or even larger numbers of ships, they'd by nature be cheaper and smaller.

Yes. If effective command and control radius for a Traveller fleet is two jumps at most, J3 is insufficient to cover a subsector. Unless fleet HQ is placed in the middle of the subsector, that is. With J4 the HQ can be in a more off-center position, but still not at the extreme coreward or rimwards edge.

But what is command and control radius for a Traveller fleet? I don't know. I do know that the fact that the Classic Era Imperium has one fleet per subsector is not proof that one fleet per subsector is absolutely necessary.

However, going into such matters is just the kind of tendency Joe Fugate's dismissive sneer was aimed at. So just to make things easier, I'll drop the speculation that the early Imperium might have covered multiple subsectors with some of its fleets and assume it had roughly one fleet per subsector, with perhaps half a dozen extras.

That allows me to rephrase my original question to:

Does anybody have any guesstimates (or genuine estimates (or canon figures)) about how many subsectors the Imperium covered at various stages of its early days?

In Year 0 (Milieu 0)?
In Year 100 (Pacification Campaigns)?
In Year 200 (Julian War)?
In Year 300 (Vargr Campaigns)?
In Year 400 (Ilelish Revolt)?
In Year 500?


Hans

 

[Rabbit 3]

Does anybody have any guesstimates (or genuine estimates (or canon figures)) about how many subsectors the Imperium covered at various stages of its early days?

Based on some recent rereading of the mileu 0 stuff it kind of looks like during the first 50 years or so of its existence the 3i concentrated on grabbing real estate where and when it could.
So to start with it consisted of a series of world clusters, the biggest being the spaces surrounding Sylea and Vland located in what later became the central Imperial sectors.
This means that its difficult to say just how many subsectors are controlled at this point as some Imperial clusters would take up less than a single subsector and the next subsector ajacent could have no imperial presence whatsoever.
In that situation it`s likely naval assets would be allocated on an ad hoc basis depending on what the local threat level was.

 

[savage]

I guess I was vague or unclear in my initial wording. I meant to state that if 1 Fleet per sector was good in the Classic Era then 4 Fleets, as you aptly stated, would be needed in the earlier era. (One per quarter sector).

Perhaps the first 100 years of the Imperium we're different. The numbers for fleets in Classic Era "320 numbered fleets" do not work well. A little analysis leaves a lot of holes, repeats, etc. T20 era (100 years earlier) states the same number. I did a lot of analysis on the numbered fleets about a month ago, and had several thoughts. However, back to the topic.

1 named fleet for a sector is arbitrary. Let's not forget the reserve fleets.
Also ship distribution is not equal. In classic era, Rebellion source book, suggests about 1,000 ships per sector fleet. That is where the power is. These ships can be distributed as the Admiralty chooses.

4 fleets per sector would not make a lot of sense. Certainly, the J number is lower for earlier ships. That would suggest a different distribution of vessels and perhaps extra numbered fleets.

 

[rancke]

Never mind. My copy of First Survey being currently mislaid I can't consult it right now, but ISTR that there is some information on the Imperium's early expansion, so once it resurfaces I'll figure out the answers for the earliest years myself and interpolate for Year 300, 400, and 500.


Hans