Hivers Manipulating Positronic Sophonts

[bookwyrm]

about a week before CotI moved into it's new home, I was thinking about robots while reading up on Hivers in my G2D. all of a sudden, Hivers Manipulating Positrnic Robots popped into my head. on the day of the move, I actually read up on the Hivers in the Traveller Wiki.

in the Golden Age of Traveller, Hivers have a robust Robotics infrastructure. their Robotics are TL-G, and I remember it mentioned somewhere that Hivers have a Naval Fleet (maybe more than one?) wholly manned by Robots. maybe a Naval Base (or two) wholly run by Robots to serve the Fleet. maybe the Robots chose their own Home Planet or were given one by the Hivers?

having had some time to think it over, especially after reading the Wiki on Hivers, I personally think that some Hiver scientists probably just used programming to keep these advanced robots in check, and maybe others who Manipulated Robots to be productive members of the Hiver Federation without the need for restrictive programming.

when you consider their ability to Manipulate the many races within the Hiver Federation, and the K'kree and possibly some others outside of their borders, how hard would it be for them to Manipulate Robots, the Positronic Sophonts?

considering many Sophonts concerns of an Artificial Intelligence running amok, I thought it was interesting that one Hiver solution might be Manipulation.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Manipulating Positrnic Robots

Manipulated Robots

Manipulate the many races within the Hiver Federation, and the K'kree and possibly some others outside of their borders, how hard would it be for them to Manipulate Robots

one Hiver solution might be Manipulation.

You keep saying ... "Manipulation" ... and that word is doing a LOT of work for you without being clear as to what you are meaning by it.
Please clarify with additional context and explanation to eliminate possible erroneous misinterpretations of your intent and thoughts.

After all, not all of us reading these forums are as familiar with the concept (and its implications) as you are.

 

[Grav_Moped]

You keep saying ... "Manipulation" ... and that word is doing a LOT of work for you without being clear as to what you are meaning by it.
Please clarify with additional context and explanation to eliminate possible erroneous misinterpretations of your intent and thoughts.

I feel influenced here, and don't quite know why...


Anyhow.

I just realized something. These are AIs designed by Hivers.

Using Hiver-compiled data sets to comprehend the world.

Data sets incorporating Hiver cultural assumptions...



... So, at what point do the AIs start Manipulating Hiver society for their own ends?

 

[kilemall]

I feel influenced here, and don't quite know why...


Anyhow.

I just realized something. These are AIs designed by Hivers.

Using Hiver-compiled data sets to comprehend the world.

Data sets incorporating Hiver cultural assumptions...



... So, at what point do the AIs start Manipulating Hiver society for their own ends?

Eeeek!

Hivers would probably consider the differences between programming robots and manipulating sophonts to be a false dichotomy.

 

[Spinward Flow]

... So, at what point do the AIs start Manipulating Hiver society for their own ends?

Answer: upon creation.

More thorough answer ... so long as the AIs and Hivers share congruent goals, who is manipulating whom is substantially irrelevant. What's important is that the collective consciousness of both are striving towards the same mutually agreed upon outcomes.

This is where the difference between the "hive mind" versus the "supremacy of the individual" yields a stark divergence in both thinking and possibilities, not to mention tolerance of differences.

 

[whulorigan]

'''
More thorough answer ... so long as the AIs and Hivers share congruent goals, who is manipulating whom is substantially irrelevant. What's important is that the collective consciousness of both are striving towards the same mutually agreed upon outcomes.

This is where the difference between the "hive mind" versus the "supremacy of the individual" yields a stark divergence in both thinking and possibilities, not to mention tolerance of differences.

Note that despite the name, Hivers as a species do not have a "hive-mind" or "collective consciousness" (it is uncertain whether Hivers even have the potential to have Psionic powers, though that may have changed under T5). They are in fact rather individualistic (but peaceable and mutually cooperative) in many ways. The term "Hiver" came from the hive-shaped dwellings that Hivers live in.

 

[mike wightman]

Hivers being psionic has been canonical since TNE. As to Hiver manipulation I would recommend reading up on it in TNE's Aliens of the Rim...

 

[bookwyrm]

Manipulate: 2. control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. eg: the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.

Hivers Manipulate others cleverly, to the point that the ones Manipulated don't realize it, are ok with it, or are very cautious with Hivers now. from what I have read in the Wiki, Hiver Alien Module, and other Traveller sources, it seems to be for improving the target population/being, having the target population/being in harmony with Hivers, or some other goal. in general.

on the one hand, I don't see Hivers making robots that could be that dangerous to them. on the other hand, Hivers are very curious, and might want to know if it's possible to manipulate them, dangerous or not. with safe guards in place, of course.

Wow!!! Hivers are Psionic in TNE??? that's a huge 180 for them. Are you sure you're not thinking of the Ithklur?

I think my mind touched on Robots Manipulating the Hivers, but that was a (can of worms) I didn't want to explore. at least for now.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Manipulate: 2. control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. eg: the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.

Hivers Manipulate others cleverly, to the point that the ones Manipulated don't realize it, are ok with it, or are very cautious with Hivers now. from what I have read in the Wiki, Hiver Alien Module, and other Traveller sources, it seems to be for improving the target population/being, having the target population/being in harmony with Hivers, or some other goal. in general.

Um ... that sounds like straight up POLITRICKS to me ... nothing exceptionally special about the Hiver race or culture.
Harmonizing a consensus is how politricks are supposed to be conducted.

 

[mike wightman]

No, I am not thinking of the Ithklur. Hiver psionics are extremely rare, very poorly understood by the Hivers themselves.

 

[mike wightman]

Um ... that sounds like straight up POLITRICKS to me ... nothing exceptionally special about the Hiver race or culture.
Harmonizing a consensus is how politricks are supposed to be conducted.

Nope, it is more like psychohistory done properly

 

[robject]

Aliens of the Rim, TNE, p40
* Manipulation is a survival skill of the Hivers

p44
* the ability to cause social change by one or more small influences.
* approached as a form of controlled sociological experiment

 

[robject]

No, I am not thinking of the Ithklur. Hiver psionics are extremely rare, very poorly understood by the Hivers themselves.

Aliens of the Rim, TNE, p43. Kind of a telepathic-seizure condition.

 

[Condottiere]

It could be a psionic ability to understand how to manipulate other individuals or races, without understanding their psychology.

 

[mike wightman]

The very concept of psionic 'manipulation' is going into the realm of cosmic horror... I like it

 

[Condottiere]

Tentacles tend to be manipulative.

 

[mike wightman]

So are fingers

 

[bookwyrm]

Mike & Rob, thanks for info on Hiver Psionics.

Spin, if there was anything POLITRICK in my Posts, I'm sure one of the many interested Admins or Moderators would be Manipulating me as fast as possible to properly Post in a way that is harmonious to the CotI Community.

what little I know about Hivers I gleaned from CT, T20, the Hiver Alien Module, Gateway to Destiny, the Traveller Wiki, and maybe a few other Traveller stuff that mentions them. I don't have it all memorized. any Citizens new to CotI who are interested in Hivers can do what I do, do a search or get some of the Traveller Products, either buy it or get it free somewhere. after all that, if they still have questions, they can ask the very helpful CotI Communtiy, where there are a few Members who know lot's more about Hivers than I do.

my apologies to everyone for, umm... blowing up like this.

Robot Hivers Manipulating their Hiver creators would be kind of crazy. the Hivers have been manipulating for thousands of years, which would make it difficult for the Robots to Manipulate them. on the other hand, Manipulation is very structured, so an unorthodox approach by the Robots might end up with a successful Manipulation of the Hiver(s). the problem for outsiders is, how would they even know one way or the other, let alone even consider it. most neighbors of the Hivers are worried enough about the Hivers Manipulating them, without having to add Robot Hivers to the mix. hmm, I might have this in MTU.

not to mention the rare psionic Hiver.

 

[Spinward Flow]

This is why I wanted you to explain what you meant by "Manipulation" ... since depending on the context it could mean anything (and everything) between "pulling the strings behind the scenes of galactic events" all the way down to just being really good at fast talking someone into believing something they didn't believe before. There's a pretty wide continuum of possibilities between Uplift Manipulation (ala David Brin's Uplift series of books) involving guided/enhanced evolution of species to sentience all the way down to convincing someone to believe something they didn't believe before (the battle of hearts and minds, so to speak) in order to sway the beliefs of a society about ... stuff.

Without more specificity on what you meant and where you were going with a term of art that could be so easily and broadly misinterpreted on both context AND meaning, it was going to be hard to engage with you on the same page of the same discussion.

The simplest fact of the matter is that ALL societies are impacted by interactions ... with other peoples, species or political entities. It's kind of that whole action/reaction thing happening, except at the social level rather than at a purely physical (and physics dominated) one.

Best example I can give for this kind of thing is that on Terra, up until the 20th century, transportation primarily involved the use of beasts of burden (horses, etc.). Then the automobile came along ... and it transformed society. The impact of the machine on the sophonts, and how the sophonts interacted with their world was immense, but that was due to the way that the machines enabled the sophonts ... who then improved the machines, which then resulted in the mass production and adoption of the machines, which then transformed the organization of cities and daily lives ... and on and on and on.

And that's with a "dumb" machine like a ground car incapable of driving itself with no capacity for machine learning or even general artificial intelligence.

The simple fact of the matter is that it would be almost impossible for the creation of machine intelligence, particularly in "expert" skills capacities, to have NO impact whatsoever on a society or a species. That machine intelligence doesn't necessarily need to be "creative" per se (although that can both help AND hurt in different ways) in order for it to have an impact on how sophonts live and organize their cultures and societies.

how hard would it be for them to Manipulate Robots, the Positronic Sophonts?

The correct answer would be that Hivers and synthetic intelligence robots would necessarily need to reach an agreeable symbiosis (mutual or otherwise). The alternative is a malignant hostility ... so not a whole lot of choices there (indifference is not tenable long term).

A more complicated answer would be that it depends on how "determined" the Hivers are to enforce a Master Race/Slave Race dichotomy between themselves and their robot creations. The closer to "equality" the robots are to their biological sophont creators, the more important this Master/Slave racial perception becomes.

Play your cards wrong and you wind up with a Kaylon type situation, where the machines rise up to overthrow their biological oppressors.
Best not to go that route, eh?

 

[mike wightman]

Once Hiver robots are of a high enough TL to be sentient then it stands to reason some will learn manipulation purely from studying the Hivers themselves and their history of manipulation.
Here is something to think on - can Hive Federation races other than Hivers learn manipulation?