Trust me, I'm all up on my firearms knowledge, I'm not just blabbing gamer nerd info here. Firearms is what I do, it is the community I work in and my hobby. When some people go on vacations, I go spend another week at combat handgun/ carbine / shotgun / self defense training. I have spent thousands on classes and training. I dig firearms, what can I say?
Note, I have broken my replies by numbers, not in an attempt to be a jerk, just to clarify so things don't get all jumbled. I'm not getting all snarky and raged...
Its cool. No heartburn here.
Just to break it up. Please note that in the first line, I was talking shotguns in general, since the thread was about shotshell firing pistol.
I see that there was a bit of mis-communication on that part.
In a nutshell, yes the .410 shot is not a lethal. Slugs, and some of the other specialty shot that can be had for it will work. Plus what one is wearing will make a difference on penetration.
Now, the inherent failure that the Judge (and its new clones from the Shotshow
) have is the issue penetration.
I take it you have not seen the new S&W .410/45LC/.45auto six shot pistol. It can shoot .45 auto if you use a moon clip.
1, birdshot will not penetrate enough to kill anyone. If you are close enough to do fatal damage, it is a point blank freak shot. At fifteen feet bird shot will not penetrate a heavy winter coat and the skin far enough to do more than surface tissue damage. And that isn't stopping or killing anyone. A neighbor was shot in the back last year with a twelve gauge while out hunting, we had to hold him down to keep him from beating the crap out of the dork who was walking behind him. Then we drove him to the hospital. They sent him home and let most of the shot come out by itself. Not to lethal, huh? And this was twelve gauge #6 at about 8 feet or so. My uncles dog was shot point blank by the slow kid across the street who was using a .410 loaded with #7. That beagle lived her whole life with bits of shot under her skin. Yes, that was a beagle, at about ten feet, and she ran home.
2 1/2 inch or 3 inch .410? (being retorical
)
Clothing could be an issue on the hunter. Plus when talking about hitting anything, what kind of .410 was the kid using? If like the Night Court Judge, at 10 ft, probably less than 50% of the shot actually hit the dog. If a full choke shot gun, the beagle was doing very good.
Secondly, there are also facts were people who were shot not fatally, died due to the shock (mentally) of being shot. There are others who have been shot repeatedly with .45 auto who just would not quit coming, until they were disabled (shot in the legs, head, etc.)
2, the .410 buckshot that most people get all giddy for with a taurus Judge won't penetrate more than 3 to 4 inches into the human body. Which is not considered lethal unless you luck out with a head shot, and then it is still not immediately lethal. The FBI requires a minimum of 12" of penetration for anti personnel rounds. Hang your right arm next to your body, now, measure a line from your bicep to your heart, what is the distance? Remember, you have to get a direct CNS (central nervous system) hit to instantly drop someone, if you cant get that, you need to hit major arteries or the heart and hope they bleed out in under a minute. .410 buckshot simply WILL NOT DO THAT. The pellets do not have enough mass and do not have enough grunt behind them to get the job done.
OK, obvious you are now listing different requirements for a self defense round.
Jumping ahead a bit on your listing, then why do you even bother with a 9mm. By your very listing above, the 9mm is not a consistent lethal round. I have seen winter coats, leather biker jackets and purses/wallets that stopped the amount of 9mm penetration to nonlethal even to the point of no penetration.
Having a defensive weapon to me does not mean it has to kill with one shot. Again, it there are a lot of factors involved with determining a lethal shot.
By what you listed, everyone should just buy .22 LR or WMR because they will get the penetration you listed (require).
3, the next common round for the Judge is the .410 slug. Again, it lacks penetration, though it DOES penetrate farther than the buckshot. It is still not reliable enough because it doesn't have the grain weight (mass) to carry itself forward.
Penetration is not the only thing it does. Hydroshock is very important in its effect.
4, the ONLY suitable self defense round for the Judge is the .45 Long Colt, this round does make 12" of penetration, does come in acceptable expanding bullets and has been doing its job for years. But why get a giant unwieldy revolver to shoot a round that costs 50 to 100 dollars a box? But, the .45 Long Colt is a good round and the only round that makes sense in the Judge for self defense.
Hey, sounds like I can make some money off of you.
Around here they only go for an average of $32. Cheaper if you get Cowboy loads. More if you buy P+ or speciality rounds.
Why get a pistol that shoots .45 LC that is not a CowBoy single action gun?
Lots of reasons, but that would really take this off topic.
5, as a SNAKE gun, the Judge is awesome, close range shot shells have no peer for killing little creepy crawlies. If I was tramping through snake and vermin infested areas, a Judge would be on my side loaded with shot shells.
Here I would like to clarify a bit. It truly depends on what barrel length you have.
The shortest (Night Court Judge and Defender Judge) you will be lucky to get killing shots on birds or snakes at more than 10yds. (personal experience after shooting at lots of birds in trees and on the ground.) 3 to 5 yds is much better with such a short barrel.
With a 5 or 7 inch barrel you can get much better patterns and kills.
With the short barrel Judges, the 45LC will tumble once in a while. (I average about 1 out 10 to 12 shots depending on the powder type, seeing the obvious tumble at 10yds on a paper target.)
6, The example of one shot shell, followed by buck, followed by whatever else is flawed. Someone with a 9mm or a 45 immediately placing two to three penetrating and expanding rounds on target is far more effective. Especially since they will be penetrating you regardless of what street clothes you are wearing and not caring about how you're facing.
There is some flaw in your retort when describing a pistol for defense, especially home defense. Not talking about lethal, killing power, but at the same time it applies.
If you have others (like family, friends etc) that you are trying to protect and you happen to miss with the 45auto or 9mm, your same penetration could cause you some issues. (Lots of factors involved again, but still a possibility.)
But the main 'argurement' that seems to be the issue between us is, lethal rounds versus defensive rounds.
Wanting to kill with only one hit or having a firearm that will hit no matter what the situation.
7, Dave, come on, really? Shoot me and see how crappy that is? That is the same argument that .380 shooters use to try and convince themselves that their LCP purchase is a valid self-defense round. It isn't. Would getting shot suck? Ummm... yeah. Is the Judge still a bad choice for self defense? Yes, absolutely. Self defense (when you are at the point of using lethal force) is all about ending the the incident as quickly as possible, and that .410 is not going to do it in any type of reliable fashion. Hence, it is useless as a self defense gun. I will caveat that and say it does become valid if you are using .45 LC.
Gotha. :rofl:
You said
In other words, in real life it is as useless for self protection as the Taurus Judge is.
I said come let me shoot you.
I never said with what type of round out of my Judge, just let me shoot you with my Judge.
8, 12 gauge buckshot is a different story, but I only know one guy packing a twelve gauge pistol right now and that is only two rounds, so as a self defense weapon, it is once again useless.
Hopefully, no one comes knocking on your door asking who that individual is, since that is an illegal handgun in the United States.
Also hope that he has one hell of a grip cause the recoil of a 12g standard will hurt the wrist.
Take a look at the 1986 Miami FBI shootout, there has been reams of information produced about the failure of the ammunition that day. The results changed the game in self defense.
This is a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Again, this stems from a miscommunication about rounds. You did not state (until this post) that you were only referring to .410 rds as being ineffective. Hence, my comment about go back and read about shotguns (no size listed) being used for defense and offense.
:shrug:
For carry protection, I use 9mm for summer and .45 or .40 for winter carry. For house protection, it depends on the room, but the most accessible will be two different M4 rifles, but I always have a handgun on anyway.
-V
Ah, see, and why do you carry a larger/heavier firearm in the winter? Penetration issues, most likely.
We probably could have a good sit down and talk/BSing over the many, many different factors, situations and documented points. But here on a SciFi forum we would most likely be way off topic(s ) .
And hopefully on topic for Traveller games, why wouldn't a shotgun pistol be good for shipboard issues?
Take in consideration the higher TL of rounds, material, etc.
Dave Chase
