How does Book 2 Starship Economics work anyway?

[Cymew]

I've been reading the threads around here about LBB2 starship economics, and since I felt like having an oppinion on how things work I sat down with LBB2 and read.

I don't understand this.

So. Bear with me and please tell me what I've missed.

Let's say our player have a A2 Far Trader. It has a cargo capacity of 66 tons, a fuel capacity of 44 tons and costs 67.384MCr. All acording to T20, which I have handy at the moment. I think it is the data as in CT, but the numbers should work to show my thinking as the same thoughts apply to the economic systems.

The monthly payments for this ship, in total %220 of the price, payed at 480 months should be 308 843Cr.

Since it's a Jump2 ship we can jump with a filled hold and fuel tanks for 10 ton fuel/jump. The Powerplant uses 1 ton fuel/4 weeks.

If I have a full ship I can them jump (1 week), dock and sell my cargo and find new (1 week), jump back (1 week), sell/buy/refuel (1 week). Total 4 weeks. Lather, rinse, repeat.

If I do this one year I can do 12 such trips, and need to refuel after jumping back i.e. 12 times a year.

Fuel costs 22 000 Cr.

Life support for the 10 staterooms costs 52 000 yearly.

0.1% of the price of 67MCr for annual maintainence is 67 384Cr.

If I have 4 crew, pilot, engineer, gunner and steward I have to pay 168 000Cr annually in salary.

Berthing is approximately 12 * 200 = 2400Cr


The annual costs then is 620 627Cr a year.

Now. If I haul 66 tons of cargo back and forth and get 1000Cr per ton I'll get 66 000Cr each time. Do that 12 times a year and you'll earn 1.584Mcr.

This is where the mystery reveals itself.

Income: 1.584MCr
Costs: 0.621 MCr

A tidy profit!!!

Now. Wasn't it supposed to be that you had to do speculative trading in order to get a profit? I though that was why there's so many thread about how the system needs to be a little less harsh?

According to my calculations you will earn almost a million a year hauling cargo without risks or speculation...

 

[Cymew]

I've been reading the threads around here about LBB2 starship economics, and since I felt like having an oppinion on how things work I sat down with LBB2 and read.

I don't understand this.

So. Bear with me and please tell me what I've missed.

Let's say our player have a A2 Far Trader. It has a cargo capacity of 66 tons, a fuel capacity of 44 tons and costs 67.384MCr. All acording to T20, which I have handy at the moment. I think it is the data as in CT, but the numbers should work to show my thinking as the same thoughts apply to the economic systems.

The monthly payments for this ship, in total %220 of the price, payed at 480 months should be 308 843Cr.

Since it's a Jump2 ship we can jump with a filled hold and fuel tanks for 10 ton fuel/jump. The Powerplant uses 1 ton fuel/4 weeks.

If I have a full ship I can them jump (1 week), dock and sell my cargo and find new (1 week), jump back (1 week), sell/buy/refuel (1 week). Total 4 weeks. Lather, rinse, repeat.

If I do this one year I can do 12 such trips, and need to refuel after jumping back i.e. 12 times a year.

Fuel costs 22 000 Cr.

Life support for the 10 staterooms costs 52 000 yearly.

0.1% of the price of 67MCr for annual maintainence is 67 384Cr.

If I have 4 crew, pilot, engineer, gunner and steward I have to pay 168 000Cr annually in salary.

Berthing is approximately 12 * 200 = 2400Cr


The annual costs then is 620 627Cr a year.

Now. If I haul 66 tons of cargo back and forth and get 1000Cr per ton I'll get 66 000Cr each time. Do that 12 times a year and you'll earn 1.584Mcr.

This is where the mystery reveals itself.

Income: 1.584MCr
Costs: 0.621 MCr

A tidy profit!!!

Now. Wasn't it supposed to be that you had to do speculative trading in order to get a profit? I though that was why there's so many thread about how the system needs to be a little less harsh?

According to my calculations you will earn almost a million a year hauling cargo without risks or speculation...

 

[far-trader]

Well, at a quick look...

I think you missed one biggie, the revenue from the high passage tickets.

It also looks like you forgot to multiply your monthly mortgage payments over the year. And I think you calculated them wrong too. It should be:

(ship cost)/240 + monthly payments

The 20% you seem to be adding is supposed to be paid up front as a down-payment. But actually the amount you got for monthly payments is very close to what the Book 2 version would be (it costs about MCr73).

Your fuel costs are wrong (way too low). The fuel calculations are also off. It should be 40tons of fuel per jump 2.

Life support costs also look way too low.

Finally for Book 2 the cargo capacity is high. A Book 2 Far-Trader will have about 46tons for cargo.

A Book 2 designed and operated Far-Trader will run you in the hole to the tune of KCr per month.

 

[far-trader]

Well, at a quick look...

I think you missed one biggie, the revenue from the high passage tickets.

It also looks like you forgot to multiply your monthly mortgage payments over the year. And I think you calculated them wrong too. It should be:

(ship cost)/240 + monthly payments

The 20% you seem to be adding is supposed to be paid up front as a down-payment. But actually the amount you got for monthly payments is very close to what the Book 2 version would be (it costs about MCr73).

Your fuel costs are wrong (way too low). The fuel calculations are also off. It should be 40tons of fuel per jump 2.

Life support costs also look way too low.

Finally for Book 2 the cargo capacity is high. A Book 2 Far-Trader will have about 46tons for cargo.

A Book 2 designed and operated Far-Trader will run you in the hole to the tune of KCr per month.

 

[far-trader]

Maybe this will help clear up any questions you have...

Economic Assessment of type A2 Far-Trader (CT Book 2)

Ship Design:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+200tons Hull - custom MCr20.000
Streamlined 2.000

-15tons Jump drive B 20.000
-1tons Man. drive A 4.000
-2tons (reserved up)
-7tons Powerplant B 16.000

-40tons Fuel x jump 2
-20tons Fuel x 4 week

-20tons Bridge - standard 1.000
-1tons Computer mdl/1bis 4.000
Extra programming 1.000

-40tons Staterooms x10 5.000
-2tons Lowberths x4 0.200

-2tons Hardpoints x2 0.200

-4tons Air/Raft 0.600

-46tons Cargo hold</pre>[/QUOTE]Final cost is MCr 74.000

Computer programming includes:

Maneuver, Jump 1, Jump 2, Navigation, Generation, and Library.

Crew requirements are:

Pilot, Engineer, Steward, and Medic

Economics:

Note - Lowberth and Starport costs not included as they are inconsequential.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Annual Mortgage Payments -MCr3.700
(MCr74/240 x 12)

Annual Maintenance Costs -MCr0.074
(MCr74 x 0.001)

Annual Life Support Cost -MCr0.500
(KCr2 x 10 staterooms x50weeks)

Annual Refined Fuel Costs -MCr0.625
(KCr0.5 x 50 tons x 25 trips)

Annual Crew Salries -MCr0.180
(includes 2 weeks paid leave)

Annual Passenger Revenue +MCr1.500
(KCr10 x 6 high pass x 25 trips)

Annual Lowberth Revenue +MCr0.100
(KCr1 x 4 low pass x 25 trips)

Annual Freight Revenue +MCr1.150
(KCr1 x 46tons x 25 trips)

----------------------------------------------

Bottom Line Annual LOSS -MCr2.329</pre>[/QUOTE]So as you can see, by strict Book 2, without cutting some corners, the Far-Trader is a real money pit. No bank would finance them.

LOAN APPLICATION DENIED!

 

[far-trader]

Maybe this will help clear up any questions you have...

Economic Assessment of type A2 Far-Trader (CT Book 2)

Ship Design:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">+200tons Hull - custom MCr20.000
Streamlined 2.000

-15tons Jump drive B 20.000
-1tons Man. drive A 4.000
-2tons (reserved up)
-7tons Powerplant B 16.000

-40tons Fuel x jump 2
-20tons Fuel x 4 week

-20tons Bridge - standard 1.000
-1tons Computer mdl/1bis 4.000
Extra programming 1.000

-40tons Staterooms x10 5.000
-2tons Lowberths x4 0.200

-2tons Hardpoints x2 0.200

-4tons Air/Raft 0.600

-46tons Cargo hold</pre>[/QUOTE]Final cost is MCr 74.000

Computer programming includes:

Maneuver, Jump 1, Jump 2, Navigation, Generation, and Library.

Crew requirements are:

Pilot, Engineer, Steward, and Medic

Economics:

Note - Lowberth and Starport costs not included as they are inconsequential.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Annual Mortgage Payments -MCr3.700
(MCr74/240 x 12)

Annual Maintenance Costs -MCr0.074
(MCr74 x 0.001)

Annual Life Support Cost -MCr0.500
(KCr2 x 10 staterooms x50weeks)

Annual Refined Fuel Costs -MCr0.625
(KCr0.5 x 50 tons x 25 trips)

Annual Crew Salries -MCr0.180
(includes 2 weeks paid leave)

Annual Passenger Revenue +MCr1.500
(KCr10 x 6 high pass x 25 trips)

Annual Lowberth Revenue +MCr0.100
(KCr1 x 4 low pass x 25 trips)

Annual Freight Revenue +MCr1.150
(KCr1 x 46tons x 25 trips)

----------------------------------------------

Bottom Line Annual LOSS -MCr2.329</pre>[/QUOTE]So as you can see, by strict Book 2, without cutting some corners, the Far-Trader is a real money pit. No bank would finance them.

LOAN APPLICATION DENIED!

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Maybe this will help clear up any questions you have...

Economic Assessment of type A2 Far-Trader (CT Book 2)

<snip>

LOAN APPLICATION DENIED!

I don't have T20 handy and I redesigned the A2 so that it cost much less than supplement 7, but yor analysis comports with mine. The A2 is bankrupt as soon as it leaves drydock.

You also raise a very good point here -- no sane banker would finance such a ship because it is nearly a mathematical certainty that the owner would be bankrupt very soon.

Another strike against CT starship economics, in my opinion.

--Ty

 

[tbeard1999]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Maybe this will help clear up any questions you have...

Economic Assessment of type A2 Far-Trader (CT Book 2)

<snip>

LOAN APPLICATION DENIED!

I don't have T20 handy and I redesigned the A2 so that it cost much less than supplement 7, but yor analysis comports with mine. The A2 is bankrupt as soon as it leaves drydock.

You also raise a very good point here -- no sane banker would finance such a ship because it is nearly a mathematical certainty that the owner would be bankrupt very soon.

Another strike against CT starship economics, in my opinion.

--Ty

 

[mike wightman]

Couple of questions about the ship design if I may Dan.

Is it streamlined, who did you buy the computer from (it's twice the list price), is the reserved up tonnage to upgrade the maneuver drive, and wouldn't a type A2 Far Trader get standard design discount?

 

[mike wightman]

Couple of questions about the ship design if I may Dan.

Is it streamlined, who did you buy the computer from (it's twice the list price), is the reserved up tonnage to upgrade the maneuver drive, and wouldn't a type A2 Far Trader get standard design discount?

 

[far-trader]

Grrr, why those lousy ripoff gorram computer geeks!

I mistyped from memory, you're right, thanks for the catch, edited above.

And it is streamlined, I just forgot to drop the note and price in, think it still totalled up right

Correct the the "reserved up" tonnage is to upgrade the maneuver drive, to 2G of course. Naturally it will often be put to use for "small parcels"

Mostly that was done to jive with the Supplement's design of 46tons cargo.

In MTU it would be a standard hull design, but only because I changed the standard hulls table in MTU to 25/175 split for the 200ton hull, which has an interesting impact on the basic type A (10 "wasted" tons in the drives section).

 

[far-trader]

Grrr, why those lousy ripoff gorram computer geeks!

I mistyped from memory, you're right, thanks for the catch, edited above.

And it is streamlined, I just forgot to drop the note and price in, think it still totalled up right

Correct the the "reserved up" tonnage is to upgrade the maneuver drive, to 2G of course. Naturally it will often be put to use for "small parcels"

Mostly that was done to jive with the Supplement's design of 46tons cargo.

In MTU it would be a standard hull design, but only because I changed the standard hulls table in MTU to 25/175 split for the 200ton hull, which has an interesting impact on the basic type A (10 "wasted" tons in the drives section).

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
I don't have T20 handy and I redesigned the A2 so that it cost much less than supplement 7, but yor analysis comports with mine. The A2 is bankrupt as soon as it leaves drydock.

Yep it could be redesigned a few ways, the biggest of course being Book 5 (which I think shaves some cost and gives a lot more space for cargo). The Supplement design(s) beg some questions. The book seems to be descrbing two different designs, one Book 2 and one Book 5 1st edition or some blended mix of the two, with editing errors. It's a nightmare.

And like you say it still comes out short. I stuck to the spirt and notes for Book 2 since anything else should probably use a different trade system too.

I think my retake on the Far-Trader in T20 does make money (iirc) using the T20 trade rules if you max out the priority and special cargos and cut every other corner and shave close.

Stuff like buying your life support in bulk, doing monthly maintenance to reduce the annual maintenance costs, using a reduced crew (2 crew) pulling double duty (allowing 8 passenger staterooms), using unrefined fuel (with or without a purifier), dumping the air/raft (for more cargo or the purifier), etc., etc., ...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by tbeard1999:
I don't have T20 handy and I redesigned the A2 so that it cost much less than supplement 7, but yor analysis comports with mine. The A2 is bankrupt as soon as it leaves drydock.

Yep it could be redesigned a few ways, the biggest of course being Book 5 (which I think shaves some cost and gives a lot more space for cargo). The Supplement design(s) beg some questions. The book seems to be descrbing two different designs, one Book 2 and one Book 5 1st edition or some blended mix of the two, with editing errors. It's a nightmare.

And like you say it still comes out short. I stuck to the spirt and notes for Book 2 since anything else should probably use a different trade system too.

I think my retake on the Far-Trader in T20 does make money (iirc) using the T20 trade rules if you max out the priority and special cargos and cut every other corner and shave close.

Stuff like buying your life support in bulk, doing monthly maintenance to reduce the annual maintenance costs, using a reduced crew (2 crew) pulling double duty (allowing 8 passenger staterooms), using unrefined fuel (with or without a purifier), dumping the air/raft (for more cargo or the purifier), etc., etc., ...

 

[Cymew]

Well, if I missed the passages (which I did ,oops) then I just get more income!

I kind of suspected that there was something wrong with the monthly payments. It says the same thing in CT/T20/MT and I don't understand how it works in none of them. That's a place where an example would have worked wonders.

The fuel costs sounds a bit low, yes. I took it from T20 p.265 where it says a Jump2 engine uses 10 tons a jump. LBB2 says 40 tons, now that I have that at hand.

Life support was calculated at 10 staterooms, 2000 Cr per 2 weeks as p.8 LBB2. 26*2000 for one year is 52000Cr. Hmmm.... may it should be 520 000 instead.

Then we have: (assuimng a 67.384MCr ship)
Fuel: 40tons*500 per jump = 520000Cr.
Salary: 168000Cr
Life Support: 520000Cr
Berthing: 2400Cr
Annual maintainence: 67384Cr
-----------------------------
Total costs: 1.278MCr a year

Income without passengers: 1.584MCr
Income w/10 high passage paid: 2.6MCr.

There's still something problematic here.

I guess my calculations for monthly payments are at fault then.

LBB2 says on p.7 "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price each month for 480 months. In effect, interest and bank finacing cost a simple 120% of the final cost of the ship, and the total financed price equals 220% of the cash purchase prize, paid off over a period of 40 years."

So a ship that costs 67.384 MCr. (T20 price, since I don't find a LBB2 price) will have cost the owner 220% of that once paid off. That's 148.245MCr. Divide that by 480 and you get 308843Cr a month.

Another way of interpreting it is that you pay 1/240th of 67.384MCr for 480 months. That's 280766Cr a month for a total cost of 134.768MCr. That's 200% of the total cost when the ship is paid in full.

Frankly I do find the quoted passage murky, to say the least. But, the difference per month for a ship that costs 67.384MCr is 28077 a month for an annual difference of 336924Cr wich don't make that much of a change to the total costs. It stills seems you make a profit with this ship, while everyone says you don't.

 

[Cymew]

Well, if I missed the passages (which I did ,oops) then I just get more income!

I kind of suspected that there was something wrong with the monthly payments. It says the same thing in CT/T20/MT and I don't understand how it works in none of them. That's a place where an example would have worked wonders.

The fuel costs sounds a bit low, yes. I took it from T20 p.265 where it says a Jump2 engine uses 10 tons a jump. LBB2 says 40 tons, now that I have that at hand.

Life support was calculated at 10 staterooms, 2000 Cr per 2 weeks as p.8 LBB2. 26*2000 for one year is 52000Cr. Hmmm.... may it should be 520 000 instead.

Then we have: (assuimng a 67.384MCr ship)
Fuel: 40tons*500 per jump = 520000Cr.
Salary: 168000Cr
Life Support: 520000Cr
Berthing: 2400Cr
Annual maintainence: 67384Cr
-----------------------------
Total costs: 1.278MCr a year

Income without passengers: 1.584MCr
Income w/10 high passage paid: 2.6MCr.

There's still something problematic here.

I guess my calculations for monthly payments are at fault then.

LBB2 says on p.7 "Standard terms involve the payment of 1/240th of the cash price each month for 480 months. In effect, interest and bank finacing cost a simple 120% of the final cost of the ship, and the total financed price equals 220% of the cash purchase prize, paid off over a period of 40 years."

So a ship that costs 67.384 MCr. (T20 price, since I don't find a LBB2 price) will have cost the owner 220% of that once paid off. That's 148.245MCr. Divide that by 480 and you get 308843Cr a month.

Another way of interpreting it is that you pay 1/240th of 67.384MCr for 480 months. That's 280766Cr a month for a total cost of 134.768MCr. That's 200% of the total cost when the ship is paid in full.

Frankly I do find the quoted passage murky, to say the least. But, the difference per month for a ship that costs 67.384MCr is 28077 a month for an annual difference of 336924Cr wich don't make that much of a change to the total costs. It stills seems you make a profit with this ship, while everyone says you don't.

 

[Cymew]

Wow, what an activity while I rechecked my calculations!

Have I got a totally weird result beacuse I only have Far Trader data from T20? Now when I check the T20 errata I find that the A2 should cost 754000Cr more, which in my calculation you easily can earn with a few passengers.

The one things that's really strange with T20 is the amount of fuel a Jump engine uses. If somebody understand the information on p.265 better than me, please tell. As far as I see it says 10 tons per jump. LBB2 uses a formula that gives a much more expensive fuel situation.

 

[Cymew]

Wow, what an activity while I rechecked my calculations!

Have I got a totally weird result beacuse I only have Far Trader data from T20? Now when I check the T20 errata I find that the A2 should cost 754000Cr more, which in my calculation you easily can earn with a few passengers.

The one things that's really strange with T20 is the amount of fuel a Jump engine uses. If somebody understand the information on p.265 better than me, please tell. As far as I see it says 10 tons per jump. LBB2 uses a formula that gives a much more expensive fuel situation.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Cymew:
Well, if I missed the passages (which I did ,oops) then I just get more income!

And that's a good thing

Some of my other points seem to be more the difference between Book 2 and T20 (like life support costs).

Originally posted by Cymew:


I kind of suspected that there was something wrong with the monthly payments. It says the same thing in CT/T20/MT and I don't understand how it works in none of them. That's a place where an example would have worked wonders.

Agreed, I think there is in Book 2 but I'm not sure. Basically the downpayment is 20% of the ship cost (after discount if any) and the monthly is the ship cost (again after discount if any) divided by 240 (but you pay for 480 months total), for a final payout of 220% the ship cost.

Originally posted by Cymew:
The fuel costs sounds a bit low, yes. I took it from T20 p.265 where it says a Jump2 engine uses 10 tons a jump. LBB2 says 40 tons, now that I have that at hand.

Ah, I see where you erred. The fuel calculation is the table value multiplied by the drive units. The table shows a fuel rate of 10tons for Jump 2 drives, and the drive units for a 200ton ship (table page 259 T20) are x4 so it's 40tons of fuel to do a jump 2 with a 200ton ship. Same procedure (table value x drive units) are used for all table values - size, cost, fuel, energy points)

I'm out of time to look at the rest at the moment.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Cymew:
Well, if I missed the passages (which I did ,oops) then I just get more income!

And that's a good thing

Some of my other points seem to be more the difference between Book 2 and T20 (like life support costs).

Originally posted by Cymew:


I kind of suspected that there was something wrong with the monthly payments. It says the same thing in CT/T20/MT and I don't understand how it works in none of them. That's a place where an example would have worked wonders.

Agreed, I think there is in Book 2 but I'm not sure. Basically the downpayment is 20% of the ship cost (after discount if any) and the monthly is the ship cost (again after discount if any) divided by 240 (but you pay for 480 months total), for a final payout of 220% the ship cost.

Originally posted by Cymew:
The fuel costs sounds a bit low, yes. I took it from T20 p.265 where it says a Jump2 engine uses 10 tons a jump. LBB2 says 40 tons, now that I have that at hand.

Ah, I see where you erred. The fuel calculation is the table value multiplied by the drive units. The table shows a fuel rate of 10tons for Jump 2 drives, and the drive units for a 200ton ship (table page 259 T20) are x4 so it's 40tons of fuel to do a jump 2 with a 200ton ship. Same procedure (table value x drive units) are used for all table values - size, cost, fuel, energy points)

I'm out of time to look at the rest at the moment.