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How Hard Would it be ?

Gadrin

SOC-14 1K
for a Type-S conducting a planetary survey from close orbit (say 100 miles out max) to spot a TL7 nuclear reactor working on a polar cap ?

the planet is virtually empty save for a few thousand inhabitants far away from the polar region.

I just want a Type-S to spot it in some fashion:

neutrino, radscanner or IR, etc.



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for a Type-S conducting a planetary survey from close orbit (say 100 miles out max) to spot a TL7 nuclear reactor working on a polar cap ?

Sounds like a piece of cake by IR... if they do a polar orbit and there's no interference to speak of. I don't think clouds are an obstacle, nor the magnetic field (presuming the planet is active and has an atmosphere). About the only way to hide the heat dump would be in an active volcano, and that'd be a baaad place to build a reactor :)

I'm not sure other methods would see it from orbit unless you get into high tech sensors like densitometers and neutrino detectors and I'm not too sure those would be as obvious as the high IR signature against the sub-zero background.

But I'm just guessing :)
 
I agree, the thing would be an IR beacon.

Furthermore, even if Gamma/neutrino detectors didn't define the nature of the plant from orbit, a facility of that size so far from other habitation would surely be worth a closer look?
 
Yeah, it'd be obvious in IR, but visually too. They aren't small.

yeah, that's the problem, the size.

I want a semi-private operation that's not obvious, but almost impossible to hide from the IISS ship.

Maybe TL8, something like an RTG & support the size of a small-ish parking lot.

Basically, I want a Type-S to come into close orbit and conduct its planetary survey as normal and realize -- "Hey, what's that doing there?"



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I agree with them. 'Specially a scoutship... but I'd say from close orbit even a freetrader's scan should be able to handle the job. I'd say that if the PCs said they were scanning for something, bing, they find it like a lit torch in a cold dark room.

If it were a more populated planet, with more settlements, I'd say there was less of a chance it would stand out as odd to them, and although it showed up on scan the PCs might not actually identify it as important. From what you describe, though, it'd be a pretty obvious thing to check out, and even if the PCs didn't say they were scanning, something like that would be "loud" enough that it might show up on routine scans.
 
I agree with them. 'Specially a scoutship... but I'd say from close orbit even a freetrader's scan should be able to handle the job. I'd say that if the PCs said they were scanning for something, bing, they find it like a lit torch in a cold dark room.

If it were a more populated planet, with more settlements, I'd say there was less of a chance it would stand out as odd to them, and although it showed up on scan the PCs might not actually identify it as important. From what you describe, though, it'd be a pretty obvious thing to check out, and even if the PCs didn't say they were scanning, something like that would be "loud" enough that it might show up on routine scans.

PCs won't be scanning, the IISS will and the info will trickle up the chain until someone gets the idea to check it out, since it's a low-pop world and their "activities" are listed in the IISS database, noticeably absent will be any "polar ops".

Then the idea is that the PCs have to go stick their noses in, so I can shoot it off :D


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What's it powering? Minimum size @TL-7 is only 20m3.

A mining operation.

I figure the idea is that they need a powersource, plus most live in some
sort of pre-fab base and the reactor handles everything.

Later on they find uranium, and sell it on the QT for nice $$, without telling the rest of the world what's going on. It's not so much an illegal operation, it's just they have a good thing going.

If you have the Milieu-Zero book, the seed is on p32.



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As Andrew notes they can be small:

Toshiba micro reactor

Probably close to his 20m3 (depends on the missing third dimension from the story). I'd figure 27m3 in round figures and 1 deck high :) That's for 200kw. Now how much does a mine need?

Still it won't matter much how it's powered (except for other sensors and factors), that much heat is still going to be obvious in IR over the background. Heck the tailings from the mining is probably going to be obvious in visible spectrum scans. And you might even be able to tell what they're mining from it.
 
As Andrew notes they can be small:

Toshiba micro reactor

Probably close to his 20m3 (depends on the missing third dimension from the story). I'd figure 27m3 in round figures and 1 deck high :) That's for 200kw. Now how much does a mine need?

Still it won't matter much how it's powered (except for other sensors and factors), that much heat is still going to be obvious in IR over the background. Heck the tailings from the mining is probably going to be obvious in visible spectrum scans. And you might even be able to tell what they're mining from it.

That's roughly what I was assuming, something a 20/50-ton small craft might use, but fission not fusion...although that might make it easier.

Maybe a 2-car garage might work better. Make it big enough to be detected, without it requiring a major construction site to undertake.

Simplistic, but still sufficiently advanced to make the entire thing possible.

Thanks for the help !

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Sure size is part of the issue, but it's also a issue of capacity. Most of our nuclear reactors are large because -- they're large. The expense only makes sense for large facilities, other than research. Also consider USN nukes for ship board use.

And its a TL-7 nuke? Considering the headache a TL-7 nuke brings, I can't imagine why someone would build one for power. They're neither handy, reliable, or portable, at least not for "wilderness" use. Not compared to, say, a diesel generator.

Now, clearly, fuel is an issue, but it begs all sorts of questions of how and why it got there, and who set it up?

What's powering the nuclear enrichment process to make the fuel? Why not use that instead?

Maybe you're talking about a modern "pebble" reactor, much safer to deploy. But, again, I would think it would have to be pretty cheap, especially compared to a fusion reactor or a diesel generator.

Because that's the nut. In the TU, Fusion is cheap, commodity, and plentiful. If you have a 100DTon starship, you have a Fusion reactor handy. Why not use one of those, and power it with sea water (along with a purification plant)?

Finally the real question is would the reactor put out enough of a signature that the Scout ship would see it, considering it's not looking for it. The sensors might pick it up, but is anyone really looking for it? Why would they be looking for activity on the poles anyway?

The guys that run Fission reactors are all nuclear scientists. We, today, don't have it down to a push button science. As a rule, we don't consider them "safe", not safe like a diesel motor is safe. Not safe where your Cousin Frank would fire one up to power the log splitter and leave it running while he ran off in to the woods behind a bush.

Obviously, later, Fusion power becomes "that safe" for whatever reason, as everything from the family car to every ship in the fleet has a fusion powerplant in it.

Rugged frontier outposts aren't in to nitty things like, oh, maintenance, or gauges, or whatever. They want simplicity and reliability. A hydro carbon power generator seems much more likely for that low tech level than a rogue nuke, IMHO. What ever is shipping product out can resupply the outpost with more fuel. 1 dTon of fuel is 3700 gallons. That's a LOT of fuel. Generators actually are rather thrifty with fuel, so 3700 gallons will run for quite some time. Found a 15000 watt generator that will run 6 months at 7500 watt load, 24hrs day on 3700 gallons.

Just a hell of a lot simpler than a nuke, and 15000 watts is a lot of power.

So, anyway I see a lot of logistical and expertise issues with a wilderness fission nuke, especially when efficient diesels exist, or even better, "Mr. Fusion".
 
Whartung:

I live afew hundred miles from a place that's getting one of those "push-button" no-maintenance fission reactors.

They are going in to real world use.
 
Whartung:

I live afew hundred miles from a place that's getting one of those "push-button" no-maintenance fission reactors.

They are going in to real world use.


Who services the thing ? The MFG ? I would think, until this becomes more common place. Damn-well better have a wireless connect direct to the monitoring station.

What's the price-tag on the reactor too ?



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Whartung:

I live afew hundred miles from a place that's getting one of those "push-button" no-maintenance fission reactors.

They are going in to real world use.


I guess my struggle is that a TL-7 reactor would be better/cheaper/faster than any of the alternatives, especially for a remote output in an era in an "universe" that has dirt cheap fusion.

Even if the reactor is viable, I imagine it to be quite expensive. Compare that to the bang/buck for diesel and it gets my head scratching.

For long term use, the nuke may well be cheaper all things considered. But I think the break even point over diesel would be in the 10-15-20 year ball park. Fine for a permanent installation, but maybe not for a rogue mining facility.

You could argue that it is a transitionary technology between conventional fuel based generators and fusion, that's my real point. Technology has moved passed them.
 
You could argue that it is a transitionary technology between conventional fuel based generators and fusion, that's my real point. Technology has moved passed them.

yeah, that's what I was shooting for, in an area that isn't surrounded by TL10+ planets, although in Traveller that's sometimes hard to pull off.

I was micro-izing the tech/knowledge, that while there are plenty of starships in the stellar neighborhood, the users don't necessarily have the knowledge to transplant one to this particular area.

definite niche scenario.


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Who services the thing ? The MFG ? I would think, until this becomes more common place. Damn-well better have a wireless connect direct to the monitoring station.

What's the price-tag on the reactor too ?



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They don't. It's an automated sealed unit, to be buried (yes, buried) 300' underground. Uses a liquid moderating fluid rather than control rods.

http://www.kiyu.com/news1006_2.htm
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nuclear-12.17b.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba_4S
http://www.roe.com/pdfs/technical/Galena/20070312_Physical%20Security_Whitepaper_Rev02.pdf <= PDF
 
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