CT Only: How I understand CT wounding and death.

[mike wightman]

A new interpretation of wounding and death

Bod 777777 is in combat and is hit.

first hit - first blood 3D rolled and applied entirely to a random characteristic

DEX is rolled - damage is 1,1,3 - DEX lowered to 2

alternative universe - 2,4,5 rolled so character is out of combat.

second hit - damage is 2, 6, 2 in that order. The first 2 is allocated vs a random stat, the player can allocate the 6 and the other 2. Randomly END comes up so UPP is currently 725777. The player allocates the 6 to STR and the other 2 to END.

UPP 123777

alternative universe - END is the random stat chosen to receive the first 2 points of damage so character is out of combat.

This is based on the sidebar from TTB/ST:

Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided; for example, a 1D result of 5 should be treated as 5 hits to be applied as one group to one of the physical characteristics. Select the first physical characteristic to receive wounds randomly; the wounded player character may select all subsequent physical characteristics to receive wounds.

 

[Brandon C]

Yeah, that's basically how I understand it to work, except that the first full paragraph on p.34 of Book 1 says nothing about the characteristic taking each die of damage either being random or player choice.

In either case, I abandoned the Book 1 wounding system as soon I was able to find an alternative.

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, there is definitely a change introduced in the sidebar(s) that is not there in the text of TTB/ST or in 77/81 LBB:1.

 

[rhialto]

I think it is just a poorly-worded rewording of the First Blood/Critical Hits rule: it doesn't say "Select the first physical characteristic to receive wounds randomly each time a character is hit", which is how I think you're interpreting it. It may be an artifact of p.47 trying to summarize the more detailed rules on pp.35 - 36.

 

[mike wightman]

If you look at the sidebars on page 47 it is clearly for the resolution of wounds other than the first blood wound - which oddly enough is in a sidebar titled critical hit.

Critical Hits
The first wound received by a character should be applied in its
entirety to one (randomly determined) physical characteristic.

I have to wonder if there was another draft of the wounding and damage rules that made it to the sidebars but not the text, almost as if someone forgot to revise the text in the book.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I don't recall any sidebars in any CT publication … maybe the alien modules … so I'm kind of curious what you all are taking about.

 

[rhialto]

If you look at the sidebars on page 47 it is clearly for the resolution of wounds other than the first blood wound - which oddly enough is in a sidebar titled critical hit.

I have to wonder if there was another draft of the wounding and damage rules that made it to the sidebars but not the text, almost as if someone forgot to revise the text in the book.

I did look, and the phrase "the wounded player character may select all subsequent physical characteristics to receive wounds." makes it clear to me that the random selection is only done upon the first wound, since after that point the character is "wounded", and satisfies the condition of the phrase I quote above. I can see how it might be confusing if that phrase isn't considered, though.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't recall any sidebars in any CT publication … maybe the alien modules … so I'm kind of curious what you all are taking about.

The Traveller Book and the Starter Traveller book of charts and tables have pages of the charst and tables with sidebars around them.

 

[mike wightman]

I did look, and the phrase "the wounded player character may select all subsequent physical characteristics to receive wounds." makes it clear to me that the random selection is only done upon the first wound, since after that point the character is "wounded", and satisfies the condition of the phrase I quote above. I can see how it might be confusing if that phrase isn't considered, though.

You need to look at the entire passage:

Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided;

Select the first physical characteristic to receive wounds randomly;

which means on any hit the first wound (die of damage) is taken to a randomly determined characteristic.

the wounded player character may select all subsequent physical characteristics to receive wounds.

Subsequent wounds (dice) are then up to the player to allocate.

Then we get the special case of the critical hit which in this case is not referred to as first blood and allocated all damage dice to the randomly chosen characteristic.

You will not change my mind on this interpretation by the way

 

[creativehum]

.... the first full paragraph on p.34 of Book 1 says nothing about the characteristic taking each die of damage either being random or player choice..

Weirdly, the text for this is in the 1977 edition but seems to have been dropped for the 1982 edition.

 

[creativehum]

Mike, I won't try to convince you of anything. But I'm with Rhialto on this.

The side bar you quote says the words you say. But the text explaining the rules 12 pages earlier says nothing of the sort. Since the TTB is riddled with weird phrasing that often cloud issues rather than clarify them, I'll chalk the sidebar phrasing up to such a situation. (I will! You won't!)

For example, notice the sidebar text uses the header "Critical Hit" when describing th First Blood rule. Now the First Blood rule is a special rule regarding damage, but it doesn't have anything to do with critical hits in any sense of any game I ave ever played. It doesn't do extra damage. It doesn't guarantee the character will go unconscious. It doesn't specify any particular location ion is hit. All,it does it take the choice of damage allocation away from the Player and make it random. While this increass the odds that the character might go unconscious it doesn't guarantee it. Which begs the question-- why is it called Critical Hit? The word "Critical" isn't used at all in the 1977 edition, and is introduced for ship damage in the 1981 edition.

Why own answer is that TTB is kind of sloppy. Yes, it tried to clarify rules. And god bless it for doing that. But it is wordier than it has to be, and I can't shake the feeling some people working on it didn't quite grasp the mechanics as they were writing or doing layout. (For example, using the term Critical Hit on a rule that has nothing to do with Critical Hits).

My own method for understanding for CT Basic rules is to start with the 1977 edition (which contains important sentences dropped from some or all later editions), then 1981 for additional clarity, then the TTB and the Errata for further clarity. Any rules or phrasing from later editions that gum up the works for the earlier editions I toss or don't worry about or see only in the context of earlier rules.

But in all cases I see the later editions there to clarify earlier editions, not to overwrite the earlier editions, with earlier editions having precedence for purpose and intent over later editions. In tho way the rules (at least to me) are always very clear and never demand any Talmudic shenanigans that so many discussions about CT rules become.

Note that I'm only saying this method allows a set of clear rules to be read and understood that work. I'm not saying every person is going to like them. I'm not saying people won't find them annoying or not realistic. Only that they work as is to specific effect, keep the game moving along, and interact with other rules in interstinf ways.

 

[mike wightman]

That's sort of the point of this thread.

The sidebar text in TTB/ST is unique, I hadn't even paid it much attention until this morning.

It makes for an interesting 'new' dynamic for damage allocation.

TTB is often touted as the ultimate expression of CT, and yet stuff like this shows it was just as convoluted a mess as it ever was - and I don't mean that harshly, just it leaves a lot of scope for referees to make the game play the way they want it to.

 

[creativehum]

... leaves a lot of scope for referees to make the game play the way they want it to.

Without doubt... And always.

 

[rhialto]

You will not change my mind on this interpretation by the way

I accept that ruling.:coffeesip:

 

[rhialto]

My own method for understanding for CT Basic rules is to start with the 1977 edition (which contains important sentences dropped from some or all later editions), then 1981 for additional clarity, then the TTB and the Errata for further clarity. Any rules or phrasing from later editions that gum up the works for the earlier editions I toss or don't worry about or see only in the context of earlier rules.

I have a similar approach, though my base is 1981, with the implied Imperium excised, and the '77 wide-open setting introduced. I've only consulted TTB for summary tables I've generated for my home-made screen. I really should look at the errata, though...

 

[mike wightman]

I should really clarify that this is not the way I have ever done Traveller combat damage resolution. This morning when I was composing a reply to the combat digression in the experience thread I happened across these sidebars and thought them very odd indeed.

I am going to give this interpretation a whirl to see what effect it has on combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

Bod 777777 is in combat and is hit.

first hit - first blood 3D rolled and applied entirely to a random characteristic

2,4,5 rolled so character is out of combat.

In my games, I find it unbelievable that so many people are knocked out during combat.

Under Book 1 combat, the most common result is Uncsiousness for 10 minutes*.

I tend to describe the result different, but the action is the same in that the character is out of the combat. Maybe he's dazed. Maybe he's afraid--uncontrollable (Private Upham style, from Saving Private Ryan). Maybe he's damaged minorly with something that takes him out of the combat, like a bullet splintering on a brick wall, with the fragments flying into his eyes so that he can't see.



*And, the 10 minutes should probably be rolled, too: Something like 3D6 minutes would work nicely.







BTW...

second hit - damage is 2, 6, 2 in that order. The first 2 is allocated vs a random stat, the player can allocate the 6 and the other 2. Randomly END comes up so UPP is currently 725777. The player allocates the 6 to STR and the other 2 to END.

I think this is too gritty. Traveller is already known to have a pretty gritty combat system. The player being able to choose where damage goes is a huge tool for the player keeping his character viable in a fight. Take that away from the player, and PCs are dropping like flies.

This is based on the sidebar from TTB/ST:

Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided; for example, a 1D result of 5 should be treated as 5 hits to be applied as one group to one of the physical characteristics. Select the first physical characteristic to receive wounds randomly; the wounded player character may select all subsequent physical characteristics to receive wounds.

I read that as speaking to the First Blood rule. It is saying that a 1D damage result for the first wound (as from a Brawling attack where the weapon is Hands doing 1D damage), all the damage is applied to physical randomly. After the character is wounded, any additional hits are applied in whole dice.

 

[Supplement Four]

A Clear Example of Wounds

A CLEAR EXAMPLE

Page 36 of TTB has a very clear example of how damage was meant to be applied in this game.

 

[creativehum]

I tend to describe the result different, but the action is the same in that the character is out of the combat. Maybe he's dazed. Maybe he's afraid--uncontrollable (Private Upham style, from Saving Private Ryan). Maybe he's damaged minorly with something that takes him out of the combat, like a bullet splintering on a brick wall, with the fragments flying into his eyes so that he can't see.

The First Blood rule is always described as "the first wound received... can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her..."

So playing it as you describe above makes perfect sense. The rule is there to "immediately incapacitate" -- not necessarily knock the character unconscious.

 

[mike wightman]

Assume you had never heard of the first blood rule, or the actual description of combat on page 35 for that matter.

Going only by what is written on the sidebars of page 47 the rules for resolving wounds are each die from weapon damage being a distinct damage group, with the first die being allocated to a random stat and then the rest distributed as the player sees fit.

This is what it says on page 35:

Wound points are applied to the target's (defending character's) strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis. Each die rolled (for example, each of the two dice rolled in a result of 2D) is taken as a single wound or group of hits, and must be applied to a single characteristic.The wounded player may decide which physical characteristic receives specific wound points in order to avoid or delay unconsciousness for as long as possible.

with what is written in the page 47 sidebar:

Wounds are applied to the physical characteristics, temporarily reducing
them for the duration of combat.
Each die rolled for wounds is treated as a group of hits that should not be divided; for example, a 1D result of 5 should be treated as 5 hits to be applied as one group to one of the physical characteristics. Select the first physical characteristic to receive wounds randomly; the wounded player character may select all subsequent physical characteristics to receive wounds.

It's like the latter is written for a similar but different damage resolution system, with the first wounds meaning first group of hits i.e. first damage die rolled in your weapon damage dice.


Then we have what is written on page 35 as the first blood rule:

The first wound received by any character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound is applied to one of the three physical characteristics (strength, dexterity, or endurance) determined randomly. If that characteristic is reduced to zero, then any remaining hits are then distributed to the other physical characteristics on a random basis. As a result, first blood may immediately incapacitate or even kill.

and again the critical hit rule on page 47:

The first wound received by a character should be applied in its entirety to one (randomly determined) physical characteristic.

Here the implication is all the damage dice, not just the first, should be applied to once random characteristic.