I see Mike's point of view on this and agree with him. If you look at first blood causing shock, which is completely reasonable, then it would apply to the first wound of any combat, healthy or not.
CT Only: How I understand CT wounding and death.
- Thread starter mike wightman
- Start date
I see Mike's point of view on this and agree with him. If you look at first blood causing shock, which is completely reasonable, then it would apply to the first wound of any combat, healthy or not.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Nope, I can not agree, even after careful reading and consideration.
A character that ends one combat in a wounded state who gets into a different combat encounter will be effected by the first blood rule, the rule does not mention the character being in an unwounded state nor does it mention the first blood rule being reset by being healed back to full recovery.
In your interpretation any character who has taken a wound ever is now immune to ever again being affected by the first blood rule since there is no mechanism for ever having not received a first wound. This is clearly wrong.
So you make up a rule that doesn't exist and say only an unwounded character can be affected by first blood.
I make up a rule that says a new combat encounter resets the first blood rule.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
It's a very simple test to see what the wording of the rule means.
The rule says, "The first wound received by a character, however, can be sufficient to stun or daze him or her, and is handled differently. This first wound is applied...."
There is nothing about a new combat taking place.
TEST
If Digger is wounded so that his stats are 776777, and he is hit later in that same combat, does the First Blood rule apply? No, because he is wounded, and another wound would not be his first wound.
If Digger is wounded from a battle the previous day, and his is hit during the first volley of a combat on this new day, does the First Blood rule apply? No, because Digger is already wounded, and any new wound would not be his first wound.
The rule does not specify time. The qualifier is if the target character is wounded or not. If taking his FIRST WOUND, then the First Blood rule applies.
How is it clearly wrong?
Where is time (or new combats) specified in the rule?
It seems the rule supports what I say much more than what you are saying.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It is wrong because according to you once a character has been wounded by first blood they can never ever ever again be wounded for the first time ever.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
So, you're saying this....
Round 1.
Digger has full stats at 777777.
Digger gets shot, taking 3D damage: 321.
First Blood rule kicks in, and damage is taken on DEX. 717777.
Round 2.
Digger gets shot again, taking 3D damage: 6, 5, 2.
Digger takes the damage, ending up with stats: 110777, and he goes unconscious.
Why does shock apply to Round 1 damage, when the character is totally mobile and still uses his stats as if they were undamaged?
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Not "ever".
Once the character heals to full attributes, the First Blood rule applies again.
Day 1.
Digger, with stats 777777, gets in a bar fight and ends up with wounded stats 747777.
Day 2.
Digger does not receive medical attention. He's still at 747777.
The guy who Digger fought in the bar comes after him with a gun. Digger takes the gun away from him but not before the foe gets off a successful shot. Damage is 3D: 621.
The First Blood rule does not apply because Digger is wounded.
Digger takes the damage, ending up with stats: 135777.
Day 3.
Digger sees the doc. He spends 30 minutes getting treated.
Now, Digger's stats have returned to normal. 777777.
Outside the doc's office, that same hot head from the bar shows up again, again with a gun.
The man shoots Digger.
The First Blood rule applies since Digger has not taken any wounds.
Damage is 3D: 5, 4, 3
Roll random, Digger's STR goes to 0. Roll random for the remaining 5 points, Digger's END goes to 2.
Digger is unconscious with stats 072777.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And that is a rule of your invention. It is not in the rules as written.
My take is that once a combat encounter is over wounded stat level remain as per whatever rules you decide on and last until recovery. If you get into a new combat encounter then your stats are at their current level and you can be subject to the first blood rule again because it is a new encounter.
The first blood rule doesn't state it only affects unwounded characters, it states it is the first damage taken (in the current encounter).
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Again, the rules as written support my contention much more than your take on it, unless you can show me where the qualifier "in a new combat" is written.
I think that you've been playing it that way for so long that you refuse to see it with new eyes.
But, hey, that's OK. I've been there myself.
Plus, you've got to enjoy the game the way you want to play it, regardless of what the rule say.
Which disagrees with the part in the rule about the first wound taken...
o:Where does it say anything about the current encounter?
What it does say is that the First Blood rule is applied if its the first wound a character takes....
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
CONSIDER THIS...
Mechanically, the First Blood rule really only exists to make it possible to take out characters with level 15 attributes. Without the rule, players can usually find a way to minimize damage on characters with stats that high.
The First Blood rule, if it doesn't reduce a character to unconsciousness or worse, lowers the characters stats so that doing the pick-and-choose method becomes more dangerous.
Therefore, the First Blood rule is only needed when the character is at full health and not damaged.
That's why the rule is written the way it is....the First Blood rule applies to healthy, undamaged characters. Hurt, damaged characters are immune to the rule just like a character who has been hurt and damaged again in the same combat.
The First Blood rule is not a "round one" only rule, either. If a character escapes from being damage on the first round of combat, he will be put to the First Blood rule in a later combat round--the round where he is first wounded. Players aren't off the hook and no longer weary of combat just because their characters went through round one without being damaged.
This could be round five, at the end of combat, if the character is first wounded in round five.
Mechanically, the First Blood rule really only exists to make it possible to take out characters with level 15 attributes. Without the rule, players can usually find a way to minimize damage on characters with stats that high.
The First Blood rule, if it doesn't reduce a character to unconsciousness or worse, lowers the characters stats so that doing the pick-and-choose method becomes more dangerous.
Therefore, the First Blood rule is only needed when the character is at full health and not damaged.
That's why the rule is written the way it is....the First Blood rule applies to healthy, undamaged characters. Hurt, damaged characters are immune to the rule just like a character who has been hurt and damaged again in the same combat.
The First Blood rule is not a "round one" only rule, either. If a character escapes from being damage on the first round of combat, he will be put to the First Blood rule in a later combat round--the round where he is first wounded. Players aren't off the hook and no longer weary of combat just because their characters went through round one without being damaged.
This could be round five, at the end of combat, if the character is first wounded in round five.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The encounter is over once you have defeated your opponents, they have defeated you, you or they run away. Characteristics are then recalculated based on wounds taken.
Subsequent combat encounters are 'new' combats - it doesn't state this because it can not possibly be any other way.
I do not use the first blood rule as written. I refuse to accept your take on it because it is logically flawed.
It is the nature of Traveller - where would be the fun if it was written so clearly we couldn't have discussions like this
Precisely
No it doesn't.Which disagrees with the part in the rule about the first wound taken...
Once again, it is either first wound taken in the combat or it is first wound taken ever, it definitely isn't first wound taken by an unwounded character
Right at the start of the chapter - the rules are for resolving stuff on an encounter by encounter basis, therefore each encounter can be considered current.
[quoteWhat it does say is that the First Blood rule is applied if its the first wound a character takes....[/QUOTE]I thought you said it said the first wound a previously unwounded or wounded and healed character takes? Oh, wait it doesn't :devil:
Which brings us back to you can only lose your first wound status once in your life...
alternatively first blood applies to the first wound you take in an encounter regardless of your previous wounded/not wounded/wounded and healed status.
We are now going around the circle, time to stop and let others discuss
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Alternatively give the opposition laser rifles...
No it doesn't - that is your interpretation.
Make sure you are sitting down - I completely agree with you on this bit
Oh, the charts section, yes. I thought you were confusing GURPS or GURPS Traveller with regular TTB or ST.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, D&D combat, in all its forms, differs from Traveller combat in that the HPs for your character don't simply reflect your bodies ability to take physical damage, but your character's total combat ability to fight, and through maneuver and combat skill, prevent a minor scratch from becoming a mortal wound.
Traveller combat is designed around firefights, which are much different because there aren't many moves you can make to minimize your damage in combat. Hence the reason damage is applied to physical stats instead of a pool of HPs (MT has its Life Force mechanic).
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
OK, now we're getting somewhere!
If you agree about this...
Digger is in a combat encounter. It is a brawl at the starport lounge. The first time he is hit during this encounter, the first blood rule is used. His stats of 777777 are reduced to 747777.
In the third round of the brawl, Digger is hit again, but the first blood rule is not used. Digger is hit for 1D damage of 3 points, and Digger can take those three points on any of his three physical stats as he sees fit.
Any addition damage laid on Digger uses the pick-and-choose system, and the first blood rule is not used.
Then what is the different in Digger having the same start in the bar on Day 1, but the second hit comes on day two when the bar foe finds him to try and kick his butt?
Day 1 = Digger hurt with reduced stats to 747777.
Day 2 = Digger hurt again.
The two scenarios are identical except for time. If we use the First Blood rule on Day 2, then you are basically saying that having a fight one day, waiting some time, and then another one the next day is more deadly than having a longer fight on the first day!
Yep, we are saying that, because all the chemicals released into the body after the first hit the first day (most notably adrenaline) are back to normal, low levels by the second day.
In fact, if the two fights occur on the same day but several hours apart, he could be vulnerable to the first blood rule again.
Don't forget to figure in the corrections to Adventurer Two's UPP/wounds. We were given only three examples of wounding, and one of the examples was incorrect. From my post in the CT Eratta section (January 2017, post #494):
I miss trading emails with Don from time to time...
The following is not listed, as of the Consolidated CT Errata v1.2 (March 23, 2015):
THE TRAVELLER BOOK (201, 1982)
Page 36, Wounding and Death, first column, first paragraph (Correction): Adventurer Two's temporary UPP is now 035777 (not 054777); he is unconscious.
STARTER TRAVELLER (251, 1983)
Rules Booklet:
Page 21, Wounding and Death, second column, third paragraph (Correction): Two's temporary UPP is now 035777 (not 054777); he is unconscious.
*A recap: Adventurer Two's permanent UPP is 777777. The attacker rolls 6, 3, 4. Again, because this is Two's first wounding of the combat, all hits are applied against one characteristic (a die roll applies them against his strength). Adventurer Two's strength is reduced to 0, absorbing the first die (6) and 1 hit from the second (second die is left with 2 remaining hits; temporary UPP is now 077777); the remaining hits from the second die (2 hits) and all of the third die (still 4 hits) are applied randomly to his other two physical characteristics (two more die rolls apply 2 hits to endurance (7-2=5; temporary UPP is now 075777) and 4 hits to dexterity (7-4=3; temporary UPP is now 035777). Two's temporary UPP is now 035777; he is unconscious.
I'm sure this has been caught before, but I can't locate a thread for it.
Let me know if i figured this out wrong, so I can edit this post.
I miss trading emails with Don from time to time...
The following is not listed, as of the Consolidated CT Errata v1.2 (March 23, 2015):
THE TRAVELLER BOOK (201, 1982)
Page 36, Wounding and Death, first column, first paragraph (Correction): Adventurer Two's temporary UPP is now 035777 (not 054777); he is unconscious.
STARTER TRAVELLER (251, 1983)
Rules Booklet:
Page 21, Wounding and Death, second column, third paragraph (Correction): Two's temporary UPP is now 035777 (not 054777); he is unconscious.
*A recap: Adventurer Two's permanent UPP is 777777. The attacker rolls 6, 3, 4. Again, because this is Two's first wounding of the combat, all hits are applied against one characteristic (a die roll applies them against his strength). Adventurer Two's strength is reduced to 0, absorbing the first die (6) and 1 hit from the second (second die is left with 2 remaining hits; temporary UPP is now 077777); the remaining hits from the second die (2 hits) and all of the third die (still 4 hits) are applied randomly to his other two physical characteristics (two more die rolls apply 2 hits to endurance (7-2=5; temporary UPP is now 075777) and 4 hits to dexterity (7-4=3; temporary UPP is now 035777). Two's temporary UPP is now 035777; he is unconscious.
I'm sure this has been caught before, but I can't locate a thread for it.
Let me know if i figured this out wrong, so I can edit this post.
Last edited:
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.
The first blood rule is meant to represent the shock and trauma of suddenly being wounded in combat. This apparently can only happen on the first wound. of an encounter resolution cycle.
Time has passed, it is a new encounter to resolve, the rules reset at step one.
The second encounter is a new combat therefore the first blood rule can be used again.
Or are you saying a combat encounter lasts until the final combatant is healed?
Try this - can digger be surprised on day one if he is attacked unawares?
Can he then be surprised on day two if he is attacked again unawares?
My view is yes, he can be surprised again since it is a new encounter - you start the whole combat cycle again, and that includes the application of the first blood rule.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
As you've been saying to me, you're wrong. That's your invention. Your (wrong) interpretation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It is my interpretation - the thread title says as much.
Similar threads
