How Much Grease?

[jawillroy]

During the course of my games (both refereed and solitaire) it nearly always becomes necessary to employ Bribery skill, and I almost never know how much the bribe ought to be.

What do you figure?

When I use it in LBB2 trade, I assume there's a kickback involved, and I just assume it to be wrapped up in the final cost (rather than the fussy LBB7 way.)

But when you're walking down the street, minding your own business, and miss your law roll?

What about when you've been walking down the street, minding your own business, packing an illegal weapon, and miss your law roll?

What about when you've been walking down the street, minding your own business, discharging an illegal weapon in city limits, and miss your law roll?

Supposing you're in the process of passing goods through customs and miss your law roll? What kind of grease do you use there? A fifty? Fifty thousand?

I relinquish the floor and await in rapt fascination.

 

[Tysis]

Well you can make up any number that you like, but for a working individual it will be low. Say, 50-300 credits. The trouble is if the bribe is twice or more what they expect they will think something is amiss. So, if that customs employee expects 75 credits and you offer 200, that could be a problem. Then again, so will offering 50.

You can assume that one of the aspects of bribery skill is being able to judge how much a person would require. Of course, this would require a skill roll, and it is doubtful you will get a second chance. Some people may make supplemental money by taking bribes, and these may actually offer a price.

 

[jawillroy]

The trouble is if the bribe is twice or more what they expect they will think something is amiss.

Well, isn't the offer of a bribe a sign that something's amiss in the first place? I mean, if a cop pulls you over and you offer him a fifty to "make this all go away," you're counting on his complicity in a crime right there.

Certainly, I agree that bribery skill would be applicable in determining the appropriate bribe, but that still leaves us the question of what that is. A twenty credit bribe might help you get a restaurant table nearer to that starport official you've been trying to cultivate. But once you've got that settled, what do you offer the starport official to "fix" the paperwork on your impounded free trader? Fifty thousand credits might be several times his salary, but it'd be a drop in the bucket compared to what a merchant captain could stand to lose if his ship doesn't lift.

 

[Tysis]

Well, isn't the offer of a bribe a sign that something's amiss in the first place? I mean, if a cop pulls you over and you offer him a fifty to "make this all go away," you're counting on his complicity in a crime right there.

Certainly, I agree that bribery skill would be applicable in determining the appropriate bribe, but that still leaves us the question of what that is. A twenty credit bribe might help you get a restaurant table nearer to that starport official you've been trying to cultivate. But once you've got that settled, what do you offer the starport official to "fix" the paperwork on your impounded free trader? Fifty thousand credits might be several times his salary, but it'd be a drop in the bucket compared to what a merchant captain could stand to lose if his ship doesn't lift.

I did not word this very well. Basically, people are going to have certain tolerances. "Hmmmmm 100 credits? Just to let you through? Well, you seem ok..." But offer 500 and that may say this guy wants it too much.

And of course, it is going to depend on the NPC and the situation. A police officer may just get very offended no mater what you offer. The star port official, on the other hand may have a very high tolerance due to the fact that he knows what the trader will loose. Then again, the official may not be the crafty type, and may just take a little extra cash. Or, the official could take his job very seriously, and you are in more trouble.

 

[Whipsnade]

Well, isn't the offer of a bribe a sign that something's amiss in the first place?

JAWillroy,

Often times a bribe ensures that the cop doesn't "invent" a crime that involves a larger "fine" and longer delays on the spot. Believe me, that happens routinely in the Real World, especially outside of the West.

I used bribery in two broad ways; "Overt" and "Included". In the "Overt" manner, my groups role-played the bribery attempt. Sure, a die roll was involved, but the bribe was part of the action.

In the "Included" manner, bribes became a "cost of business" item. Want to be refueled by a certain time? There's a "surcharge" involved. Want that cargo handled carefully and your hold kept tidy? There's a "donation" involved. Want your paperwork filed correctly? There's a "gift' involved. The ways to inflict this "bite" are endless.

My players came to know that certain worlds and certain places simply required a little "mordita" or "baksheesh" in order to get things done. It was just the cost of doing business.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[atpollard]

I have 'a friend' who travels in the third world on business a great deal and deals with this regularly (like border crossings). He handles it by cliping a bundle of local currency (typically a few hundred US dollars) to his ID. Each corrupt official takes his 'usual' fee. (Typically about $20 US)

For Traveller, I would suggest 1% to 10% of the value of the goods involved based on how 'illegal' it is. To get 'first priority' loading your MCr 1 load of machine tools might cost you Cr 10,000 (1%). To get your MCr 1 load of RPGs past the customs inspector on a LL9 world would cost you Cr 100,000 (10%).

 

[jawillroy]

I did not word this very well. Basically, people are going to have certain tolerances. "Hmmmmm 100 credits? Just to let you through? Well, you seem ok..." But offer 500 and that may say this guy wants it too much.

I don't think a bribe would come out of the blue...

I think that bribery is something that happens after trouble starts: if Captain Finagle hands his manifest over to the customs agent on Hoopla II, and he "looks okay," then he'll waltz through... never mind that he's shipping high explosive and not the Fustian Beaver Flippers he's supposed to be.

But if there's a problem - if the "papers" aren't right, that's where you're going to have to roll reaction for the clerk. If it's bad, then he's probably already got security heading over. If it's good, then maybe he's open to greasing...[/QUOTE]

A police officer may just get very offended no mater what you offer. The star port official, on the other hand may have a very high tolerance due to the fact that he knows what the trader will loose. Then again, the official may not be the crafty type, and may just take a little extra cash. Or, the official could take his job very seriously, and you are in more trouble.

Most police officers will be very offended! Though depending on where you look, some might be offended if you DON'T offer something! ... A lot of that is going to be up to the Ref (if the NPC is more important or is known to be either venal or incorruptible) or up to the rolls. And maybe the starport official who knows what the trader has to lose might be asking for bigger bribes

I actually really like the way that Bribery skill works as stated in LBB1. There's only that one issue of "how much is appropriate?"

I think that for a lot of the "daily hassle" bribes on a high-law world, they might actually be small enough - tips, really - that I'd just include them under a PCs general living expenses, and only get serious about them when the players were really "up to something." But those instances where they really ARE up to something and need the grease? I want to be consistent with.

 

[jawillroy]

used bribery in two broad ways; "Overt" and "Included". In the "Overt" manner, my groups role-played the bribery attempt. Sure, a die roll was involved, but the bribe was part of the action.

In the "Included" manner, bribes became a "cost of business" item. Want to be refueled by a certain time? There's a "surcharge" involved. Want that cargo handled carefully and your hold kept tidy? There's a "donation" involved. Want your paperwork filed correctly? There's a "gift' involved. The ways to inflict this "bite" are endless.

My players came to know that certain worlds and certain places simply required a little "mordita" or "baksheesh" in order to get things done. It was just the cost of doing business.

I like it, Bill: though I'd say there's two different things at work there. Now, when "baksheesh" is required, would you require bribery skill to handle it? I can see how one might: the ability to recognize that when the official says "Eet eez ahmposeebe, we can not have ze sheep fuel-ed in less than whan week" he really means that "In the starport there is a duty free in which you will find a brandy which I am most fond of, and should you provide me with a bottle I will be delighted to have your ship fueled and ready in twenty minutes time."

That'd be rough on those straight-arrows who don't have bribery: Like Lord Foofawraw here: "Oh, don't go to Wapapitam Five. I waited almost three days to get my visas done. I don't know how anybody gets a bally thing done there at all. All down the line, it's 'impossible,' 'impossible,' 'impossible...' D***ed inconvenient, if you ask me. Inconsiderate, that's what they are. That's why I don't go anywhere there isn't a Tee Ay Ess, anymore. You ask my Melinda, she'll tell you it's true."

 

[jawillroy]

I have 'a friend' who travels in the third world on business a great deal and deals with this regularly (like border crossings). He handles it by cliping a bundle of local currency (typically a few hundred US dollars) to his ID. Each corrupt official takes his 'usual' fee. (Typically about $20 US)

AHA! Real Life Numbers. Beautiful!

For Traveller, I would suggest 1% to 10% of the value of the goods involved based on how 'illegal' it is. To get 'first priority' loading your MCr 1 load of machine tools might cost you Cr 10,000 (1%). To get your MCr 1 load of RPGs past the customs inspector on a LL9 world would cost you Cr 100,000 (10%).

HMM.
Nuisance baksheesh without real criminal action on PCs part = cr50 x amount initial law level roll failed by.

Overt bribe to facilitate criminal activity: X% of value of goods involved, where x is the number the law roll was failed by.

Now, what if there's a starship involved? Are we talking a bribe of three million credits plus to get a free trader Koshered to lift?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

THREAD NUMBER 100 SUBCRIBED! Yes, I am that big a dork.

This will have to swiped by the Notorious Thread Bandit...Look! It's the Heat!

*swipes it in to Personal AAB while everyone looks elsewhere*

Thanks again for providing me with answers to question I had yet to think of.

 

[CosmicGamer]

... how much the bribe ought to be. What do you figure?

But when you're walking down the street, minding your own business, and miss your law roll?

What about when you've been walking down the street, minding your own business, packing an illegal weapon, and miss your law roll?

What about when you've been walking down the street, minding your own business, discharging an illegal weapon in city limits, and miss your law roll?

Street, street, street. All of these examples say street. If the officer was seen with you what are your chances you would be let go? If he called in saying he had you in custody?

One possibility: if the cop is not big on rules, he can just go through your pockets while your handcuffed, take what he wants, and still arrest you.

In general, I think there is a big difference between being asked to hand over some money and offering money.

It is really a GM thing to decide the amount. It is their NPC and world. Man up and make a decision. You don't need some pre defined amounts; then every interaction on every planet would be similar. Decide based on the facts available like law level, how rich or poor the planet is versus the person your interacting with, give your NPC some background (drug addict desperate for money?). Or do it the same as you would have to for solo play:

There are so many factors that any amount you offer can be roleplayed away.

1) You offer a very reasonable amount but your roll fails - maybe they think someone from INS is out to get them.

2) You offer a small amount and roll real good - maybe he knows the jails are full and they would probably just take your gun and let you go anyways; he'll take your bribe and take that gun off the streets too (and into his own pocket). He thinks justice will be served and there is a donut shop just around the corner; why waist his time hauling you in.

If you are purposefully using a small amount make the attempt harder, and easier if you think you are being generous with the bribe.

 

[jawillroy]

Street, street, street.

Not meant literally. Just trying to throw out ideas to get things going.

All of these examples say street. If the officer was seen with you what are your chances you would be let go? If he called in saying he had you in custody?

None and none. If you need to bribe, then you bribe his CO when you're being interrogated down the station!

One possibility: if the cop is not big on rules, he can just go through your pockets while your handcuffed, take what he wants, and still arrest you...
In general, I think there is a big difference between being asked to hand over some money and offering money.

You don't need bribery skill to get your pocket picked. It's a likely event in the sort of places PCs go, but it's not the same situation I'm curious about.

It is really a GM thing to decide the amount. It is their NPC and world. Man up and make a decision.

Pshh. GM'd games > hot dinners, you know? Of course. But there is benefit in seeing what other people have done. Or else why are we here? It's not a question of "manning up."

There are so many factors that any amount you offer can be roleplayed away.

That, and your examples, are some of the very reasons I like the way the rule is constructed.

 

[CosmicGamer]

If you need to bribe, then you bribe his CO when you're being interrogated down the station!

I think I know what your getting at but the CO also probably would not let you go once the process of your arrest has started - unless this is a wild west town where the CO is judge and jury too. Bribing, or threatening, the prosecutor who determines if there is enough evidence to keep you held over for arraignment is more in line but still unlikely, in my opinion, because of the other people involved. They will be going around water cooler talking "can you believe he let that guy go" and it would possibly get internally investigated (high risk to take bribe once more people are involved).

You don't need bribery skill to get your pocket picked.

That was my point. Several of my statements about bribery were just showing reasons why it would fail. Why accept a bribe and risk getting caught releasing a crook when you can just take their money and still arrest them...

it's not a question of "manning up."

My point in a few sentences was that a GM becoming dependant on charts and tables of pre-defined values would probably be less likely to roleplay. They might just say "you offer 100cr and he takes it" instead of playing out one of my examples.

...your examples, are some of the very reasons I like the way the rule is constructed.

Thank you.

I know where your coming from, getting info and suggestions from others is useful. I'm just suggesting you store the info in that filing cabinet between your ears and not create a chart

Bribe police man = $250cr
Bribe customs worker = $150cr
Bribe bouncer = $25cr
Bribe your significant other to forgive you for spending more time playing games than with them = flowers, candy and a night out

 

[pendragonman]

Bribe police man = $250cr
Bribe customs worker = $150cr
Bribe bouncer = $25cr
Bribe your significant other to forgive you for spending more time playing games than with them = flowers, candy and a night out

And we now have a most excellent new sig! WOOOOOOT! :smirk:

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*thinks of a commercial8

Bribing the Navy Captain to get out of the Red Interdiction Zone with the Ancient Artifact: Priceless. For everything else there's bearer credsticks.

 

[jawillroy]

I know where your coming from, getting info and suggestions from others is useful. I'm just suggesting you store the info in that filing cabinet between your ears and not create a chart

Agreed - I'm not fond of charts myself.

Bribe police man = $250cr
Bribe customs worker = $150cr
Bribe bouncer = $25cr
Bribe your significant other to forgive you for spending more time playing games than with them = flowers, candy and a night out

GOLD. We have a winner.

 

[Whipsnade]

Most police officers will be very offended!

JAWillroy,

The police officers who would offended are only those police officers you've met while living on the 21st Century Western world.

Believe me, as ATPollard correcty points out, most police officers on Earth both expect and count on being bribed. It's part of their "salary package".


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

I most strongly agree with Cosmic Gamer on several points. Bribery is something to be role-played, it should not be reduced to something resembling those (in)famous D&D treasure tables.

In my games bribery skill was generally used in a few ways: to realize that the culture "requires" bribes, to "ballpark" the amount required, and to hand over the cash/gifts/whatever in a manner that wouldn't cause offence. (Of course Streetwise skill can also be used to determine the first "job" listed and, perhaps, the second.)

I should also point out the bribery can work on a "higher" level than just slipping that beat cop a quick sawbuck. You can also bribe officials with gifts, "wining and dining", honorariums, campaign contributions, and other mechanisms. Bribery can work in all those situations.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[jawillroy]

Bribery is something to be role-played, it should not be reduced to something resembling those (in)famous D&D treasure tables...

In my games bribery skill was generally used in a few ways: to realize that the culture "requires" bribes, to "ballpark" the amount required, and to hand over the cash/gifts/whatever in a manner that wouldn't cause offence. (Of course Streetwise skill can also be used to determine the first "job" listed and, perhaps, the second.)

Oh, I completely agree. I'm mainly curious about what those "ballparks" might be IYTUs.

 

[Whipsnade]

Oh, I completely agree. I'm mainly curious about what those "ballparks" might be IYTUs.

JAWillroy,

The "ballpark" depends on the time, place, and who you are bribing. That's not much of an answer, but it's the only one I have.

There are several discussions in various sourcebooks on how to handle the UWP's Law Level stat and those would be a good place to begin. Combining both the government and law level stats (and depending on your personal views) would be another way to get a handle on bribery.

For example: One facet of low law levels in mentioned in either CT or MT. While the society in question may not have many laws, the laws it does have may be enforced very strongly and carry extreme punishments. So, while no one's going to ticket you for littering on Anarchia-IX, causing someone's death on the same planet leads to a firing squad!

As a rule of thumb IMTU, bribery is more endemic (and handled by smaller amounts) the higher a planet's law level and government code may be.


Have fun,
Bill