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How to cool ships, or, Why is my fuel tank so friggin huge?

Forget convection - there's nowhere near enough hydrogen to support that. That basically leaves radiation from the skin of the ship. And unless the ship is emitting a hell of a lot of energy, that's not going to be that efficient.
 
How much energy does it have to radiate to maintain the jump bubble ;)

And what form does that energy take?

It may as well be heat.

A good question to have answered would be can em radiation cross the jump bubble "barrier" into jump space itself?
 
Malenfant is correct in that convection will be inefficient as a means to remove heat from a starship to a jump bubble. That doesn't mean it won't happen, just that the effect will be relatively insignificant.

The jump bubble itself is a rather fuzzy thing, and canon leaves it that way on purpose. The "little understood phenomenon" leaves much wide open for speculation.

The simple fact of physics is that you can always transfer heat to a hot target if you have a radiator that happens to be hotter. Its also a simple fact that your fusion reactor is producing tons of heat that has to go somewhere. And a bedrock foundation of thermodynamics is that you simply cannot use the waste heat. A nasty little demon named entropy keeps rearing its ugly head to stop that from occuring. You can only generate power so long as you have a cold sink to reject waste heat to, and that cold sink MUST be far colder than your heat source (the power plant itself).

So, heat storage onboard for the sake of cooling your powerplant is only going to work as long as you have enough thermal mass to hold it AND keep it cold enough. And hydrogen just isn't going to fit the bill. Stone might work, but I'm just not so sure I want to go trapsing around with a HUGE thermal battery in my hull. And at some point, you still have to get rid of that heat to somewhere overboard.

Then again, that might make an interesting dynamic, where you exit jump and have to spend two hours opening up a huge radiator array to dump your waste heat before you can start maneuvering. Even so, hydrogen just isn't a viable medium for heat storage onboard. If you use a liquid, at some point it will begin evaporating and building pressure. That could be released in a huge cloud in a similar fashion to the expanding jump plasma dynamic I use IMTO. The problem then becomes refueling your thermal mass between jumps. Better not use anything expensive or hard to come by.

Refrigeration cycles MUST have a heat dump somewhere, so you cannot use that process to cool your heat sink without another heat sink to dump to. This is why the array on the back of a refrigerator gets hot when in operation and why air conditioners are so blasted hot on the outside. They are effectively concentrating and then pumping the heat out of the cooled area. But in their case, you have a whole planet to dump to. Furthermore, entropy keeps the refigeration cycle from ever having an efficiency above 1.0 (which is a theoretical max). In other words, the 'fridge in your kitchen makes more heat than it removes from the interior.

Your starship on the other hand is not so fortunate. As already illustrated, hydrogen doesn't have enough thermal mass to store the heat INSIDE The ship. As far as outside goes, all you need is a radiator that is running hotter than the environment, and a fairly well insulated hull that can stand up to the temperatures generated.

Which brings us back to the jump bubble. IMTU, I hold that it is relatively mass-impermeable. That is, it holds the hydrogen you pump into it, and the hydrogen acts as a pressure bladder to stabilize it. Your radiators then dump heat overboard, where some of it heats the hydrogen, and some of it escapes through the bubble into "somewhere elese". The hydrogen also acts as a target to radiate to, because as it increases in temperature it also increases in pressure and further stabilizes the field against collapse.

As a side effect, the radiators IMTU also are forced to run hotter and hotter as the jump proceeds and the hydrogen in the bubble picks up the residual waste heat. This makes radiator breakdown a crucial concern for the crew.

All this devolves into the classic differential heat loss scenario that you see on "heat-transfer-301" exams. "At what rate must your radiator surface increase in temperature in order to remove X kW of waste heat contiuously if the environmental temperature increases at y° per second." That sort of thing can get very involved once you start factoring re-irradiation and view factors into your equations.

Now, I'm not saying that anybody else has to use radiators. You really don't have to consider any of this stuff IYTU if you don't want to. But it does make for interesting play if your players have an "other than starwars" mentality.

Like any good stew, how you season you campaign's tech base will nicely affect its flavor.

YMMV.
 
Ok, so let's ask the question this way then.

How hot is jumpspace?

zero K?

What if our laws of thermodynamics don't apply in jump space so that the problem isn't how to get rid of all the waste heat, but rather how to prevent jumpspace from freezing your ship solid?

Does entropy work the same in jumpspace? I doubt it ;)

And yeh, I know that all answers are IMTU and all that but it is fun to think about them ;)
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Ok, so let's ask the question this way then.

How hot is jumpspace?

zero K?
Hot as you like?

What if our laws of thermodynamics don't apply in jump space so that the problem isn't how to get rid of all the waste heat, but rather how to prevent jumpspace from freezing your ship solid?

Does entropy work the same in jumpspace? I doubt it ;)
Well, they still work inside your jump bubble, so as far as the ship is concerned its still a problem.
And if you have the cold j-space idea: then you are intentionally heating the hydrogen in the bubble anyway to protect yourself from the cold.

And yeh, I know that all answers are IMTU and all that but it is fun to think about them ;)
Too true.
 
Vaccum radiation makes the whole ambient heat issue completely moot.

Blackbody radiation is completly inconsiderate of ambient heat of anything other than the radiant object (other sources of heat transfer may keep a radiator operating well below it's BBR potential by robbing hat and reducing the radiation...). A 1000degree tugsten filament radiates the same in or outside vaccum, and whether or not the outside air is 1 degree or 1000degrees. and if, for some reason, that filament is 1000 degrees in a a 10000 degree environment, it still radiates the same.

In vaccum, especially that of space, the ambient temperature is totally irrelevant; what matters is the energy inputs being balanced to energy output.

Now, waste heat CAN be moved, and the waste heat energy density can be partially recovered, but never at full efficiencies; all work produces either kinetic motion or waste heat. You can pump that waste heat around, concentrate it from the engines and put it out the radiators, but it will not be "Useful" in terms of other systems, unless you also use some form of heat-essential process (like cooking). Setting an oven on a shunt off the main coolant line is a very possible use for "waste heat", but the efficiency is WAY low, and the escaped heat is quite noticeable.

Your refrigerator is a heat pump and an insulated box. it radiates and convects heat off the coils.

But a ship in space, even jump space (unless we use the T4 "pressurized Hydrogen Bubble" model) is in vaccum. from an external point of view, the PP and the radiation effects are the whole of the system. (Unless you dump heated ballast.) There will be incoming radiation, at all times. (The levels may be negligible, but they are still present, as even neutrino interactions generate some heat.) The PP is essentially a steady source; if the sum of the radiator capacity is above the sum of the PP energy and the absorbed radiation, you can cool the ship as far as the mechanism allows. If the radiator's capacity is less, the ship heats up, until the rest of the ship's BBR balances the equation. (This balance may exceed safe operating temps...)

So, if the jump bubble is reflective, ships in J-space heat up.
If JSpace sucks up all radiation, AND sucks up kinetothermal energes, unless J-space TOUCHES the ship, the ship is insulated by vaccum, ad will not lose heat quickly; only by BBR from the radiators and the hull.
If thermodynamics fails inside the bubble, so does life, and the rest becomes completely moot.
 
While it is true that you do not need a target to transmit heat TO for vacuum radiation, it is also true that your hull is only going to emit ~230W per square meter (0.23kW or 2.3 * 10^-4 MW) of heat on a continual basis. This assumes a hull temp at surface of 300K (very generous in terms of how warm the skin would be, and therefore “conservative” for heat loss estimates), a background temp of 4K (real world background temp for deep space), and a hull emissivity of 0.5. If you start with a cold / shut down your reactor and all systems, your ship will eventually get very cold. The effects of the chill will be felt in a few hours, things will become hazardously cold in a few days.

Which means a 100 ton sphere would be able to self-radiate approximately 0.139MW. Not bad if you need to cool down with no power plant at all. But your power-plant, which if its anything akin to a modern nuclear plant will have an efficiency on the order of 35-40% MAX) is producing several megawatts, you still have to get rid of a load of heat. For the 100 ton example, lets say 4MW total produced for usable power. At 40% (which is actually a VERY high efficiency for a power plant), you are making TEN megawatts of heat. You still have 6 MW to get rid of, and only 0.139 MW bleeding out of your hull. And no, Traveller has never accounted for reactor efficiencies and even FF&S never rated the radiators according to how much heat generation is present, only actual power plant output.

A blackbody radiator is defined as a surface with an emissivity of 1.0, which is another one of those theoretical maximums. There are no such materials in the real world. Your tungsten filament is a very good example of a real world radiator, and it has a well documented emissivity of approximately 0.6. The closest we can approach to this in nature is the emissive spectra from a star, and even that never quite gets there.

As to the background temperature, please refer to the equation I posted several posts ago. That formula can be found in nearly any heat transfer text book. Background temp is the term Tsurr^4. It is VERY relevant, as it determines what your NET transfer rate is. When that temperature is a mere 4K, it’s not that big a deal. But when your environment is on the order of several thousand K, it’s effect is quite pronounced.

Waste heat can be used? To a very small degree. In boilers: economizers, superheaters, and the like make an effort to use up the residual heat of the system, but they do not use the WASTE HEAT, which is the heat rejected to the cold sink for your Rankine cycle. And note your cycle efficiency is determined by the ability to reject that heat at the end of the process. So, yeah, cooking and maybe sauna heating would be nice uses for it, but not enough to make a difference.

As to the refrigerator/air conditioner, yes you are correct they use convection to dissipate the accumulated heat, but that is because convection is available. The same devices if used in a vacuum would be forced to rely on a radiator if they wanted the heat outside the system, unless they transferred to another system somewhere else onboard. But at some point, you have to get that heat overboard or you will start to build it up somewhere. An internal thermal-battery for the 100 ton example above is going to have to be able to store 6 megawatt-weeks worth of energy. Or roughly 3.63 * 10^12 joules of waste heat.

I don’t know of any medium, even at twenty tons of displacement mass that has that kind of thermal capacitance. The temperature rise in such a medium btw is

dT = E / m * Cp where

dT = change in temperature
E = applied energy
M = mass in kg
Cp = thermal capacitance

20 tons of liquid water will go from a barely liquid 4°C to boiling with the application of only 1.92 * 10^9 joules of energy (assuming a constant Cp of 1000 joules/kg*°C). Phase change from ice to liquid, and again to steam will account for another few billion joules, but still not much of a dent. There goes the ballast if water was used, and you haven’t even made a dent in the heat that was generated in that time frame. With what you have left over, you can melt twenty more tons of rock into lava, and still power your sauna.

There is a reason that real world power plants have such HUGE heat rejection systems. Take a look at a pic of a nuclear reactor sometime. Those HUGE towers are cooling arrays. They take up 90% of the land footprint of any given system. And yes, there are hundred plus megawatt reactors in use.

Now, if you go with cold fusion as a viable option (which it might be someday, but for now it doesn’t seem to be the case)… then all of this thermodynamic mumbo jumbo goes right out the airlock. No heat production means no heat rejection to deal with.

Which is all a very long winded way of getting around to saying, yeah, I hope the j-space bubble ISN’T reflective. If the bubble is reflective, our poor ships are going to get cooked.

Pass the marshmallows.
 
My Maths isnt that good anymore.

So then, how big does the radiator need to be (in square meters) per megawatt of power flow in order to maintain a comfortable environment aboard in vacuum (N-space)?

As for jump space I am happy to throttle back the power plant to grey mode (just supporting artificial grav and life support) in order to reduce the effects of the waste heat problem...

Many Thanks
 
In game terms, your radiators will be accounted for in the powerplant tonage, but if you want a fair idea of how large these things have to be in real life I can give you some very fast "back of the envelope" numbers.

The actual size depends on several factors, namely the temperature you wish to run your radiators at, and the quality of the emissive surface. The values here illustrate (forgive the formatting):

Radiator Surface Area to discharge 1MW
°F / K / 0.7 / 0.9 / 0.99
1200 / 921.89 / 34.88 / 27.13 / 24.66
1300 / 977.44 / 27.60 / 21.47 / 19.52
1400 / 1033.00 / 22.13 / 17.21 / 15.65
1500 / 1088.56 / 17.94 / 13.96 / 12.69
1600 / 1144.11 / 14.70 / 11.44 / 10.40
1700 / 1199.67 / 12.16 / 9.46 / 8.60
1800 / 1255.22 / 10.15 / 7.89 / 7.18
1900 / 1310.78 / 8.53 / 6.64 / 6.03
2000 / 1366.33 / 7.23 / 5.62 / 5.11

Where K is the temperature in Kelvins, and the columns to the right show increasing emissivity values. 0.7 is a typical "modern" radiator. 0.99 is approaching the effect of a "blackbody". All values are in degrees or square meters. These numbers assume a flat radiator, no re-irradiation of the radiators themselves, discharge of one megawatt and a 4K background temperature (deep space). The numbers are also TOTAL required emissive area. These could be broken up into multiple smaller arrays.
 
Now, just for reference, if J-space is in fact producing a reflective bubble, in order to avoid cooking, we shut down the multi-MW PP, and slowly heat-bunker into the cryo fuels...

If the J-space bubble is non-reflective, we use the 4Kelvin rate for BBR, as we do in all space situations. Or so said Carl Sagan and Dr Skull... Therefore, in vaccum, temperature is irrelevant. Radiation input /output is all that matters.

To give an idea of how much radiator space is needed IN EARTH ORBIT, the suttle overheats within a couple of hours if it can not open the bay doors and expose the radiators (which cover about 90% of the bay door interiors...).
 
Hi !

Rhys, Youre very welcome here to spread some physics


What I would suggest for those following the radiator path, is really to check potentiell properties of materials created/modified at higher tech levels.
Perhaps You could check, what oppertunities would be given by some materials capable to withstand higher temperatures and thus allowing even higher radiator temperatures....
E.g. a bonded superdense tungsten might be pretty effective.
Perhaps I do some solid body physics calculations in the evening..


Anyway, just a question to the audience:
How do you think is electricity generated in YTU's powerplants ?
Turbines ? SuperPeltiers ? EnergyCristalls ?

Regards,

Mert
 
I always assumed a combination of technologies. optical-cells around the fusion core, with fluid coolant steam cycles for additional grab, plus MHD flux on the output stream, plus free electron capture. Not certain how efficieent these would be, but I always assumed "Not Very" until MT came out.
 
Please note that the following is completely non-canon, and is furthermore purely conjecture on my part. Any resemblance between what follows here and real world physics is purely accidental ^_^.

IMTU, fusion reactors work something like this:

Slush L-hyd which powers the reactor leaves the fuel tanks and is pumped into a primary holding chamber, where it is warmed somewhat by induction heating to become gaseous. This area has numerous warnings of cryogenic service and the like, and is generally sealed off from the rest of engineering and heavily insulated. Workers whom go in to work on the “pre-fire chamber” typically have to don cold weather gear.

From here, the gaseous but still very cold hydrogen enters a linear accelerator where it is brought up to speed and then compressed by magnetic field peristalsis. That is to say that it is both shot forward at high speed, and then crushed from the sides. This device is typically called a “constrictor/injector assembly”. Depending on the reactor output, this accelerator is between two and fifty meters in length, and there may be more than one of them feeding the reactor. Because the accelerator can only feed and compress hydrogen in packets, it operates at a steady frequency depending on duty cycle, and tends to fill the engine compartment with a steady “thrumming” sound. Compressed and accelerated hydrogen will by now have reached a fairly high energy state, and becomes plasma. From here it is fed directly into a toroidal containment chamber, or Tokamak. The feed is at a tangent to the toroid, so as to enter and accelerate the existing plasma flow.

(Note, the accelerator lengths may seem a tad “short”, but my primary assumption here is that the accelerator technology is very similar to plasma and fusion rifles. So the length is a direct hand wave. Yes, the accelerator idea was borrowed from Star Trek, but it works for what I’m using it for. ^_^)

As the plasma “orbits” the tokamak’s interior, it is further heated by induction until it reaches ignition temperature. During startup, this can take several minutes to a few hours. Once the reaction has achieved ignition however, the fresh plasma is fed at a rate sufficient to sustain the reaction and depending on duty cycle or required power loading. At this point, induction heating is no longer required, and those segments of the field windings are switched over to magnetic field generation to reinforce the “bottle”. Those portions of the field that are devoted to constricting the plasma field continue to operate, because if the pressure drops, so will the reaction efficiency.

The tokamak is surrounded by a device called the “primary cooling jacket”, through which is pumped slush l-hyd on its way from the fuel tank to the pre-fire chamber. This heat spill is used to help pre-heat the incoming l-hyd in what power-plant engineers term an open feedwater heater, although in this case its more of a feed-fuel heater. The flow of coolant fuel is carefully measured to maintain a delicate balance between required fusion temperatures and material thermal limits.

Surrounding this assembly is a vacuum gap, radiation shielding, the outer reactor shell and the secondary cooling jacket. The secondary cooling jacket feeds excess heat spill into the ship’s cooling system for rejection, and brings the outer shell temp down to manageable levels.

Plasma from the tokamak is tapped directly for electrical power production. Since plasma is essentially ionized gas (helium at this point), the electrons are a free cloud separate and distinct from the atomic nuclei, although intermixed in the flow. To accomplish this, the plasma is fed to a device named the “electron pick-off coil”, where these free electrons are harvested to provide high voltage current. This current is then used to power the ship. Depending on the power-plant and starship in question, this system can be operating between ten and one hundred kilovolts. Given the sizes of the currents involved, the bussing in this area is HUGE. Electrical power is then distributed to the individual ship systems as needed.

The now highly positively charged helium plasma is then fed into a device called the recuperator. This device cools the plasma using the tertiary cooling jacket, feeding the waste heat to the ship’s cooling system (and finally out to the radiator banks). Part of the waste heat is used to pre-heat incoming l-hyd for use in the pre-fire chamber, the rest is rejected. This also serves as a grounding chamber, as sufficient low energy electrons from the ship’s return electric system serves to neutralize the helium back to its inert state. This serves as an electrical ground, and completes the ship’s electrical circuit. This residual helium is stored elsewhere and forms part of the ship’s wastes. This is usually purged during starport refueling. (Part of the refueling costs is the cost of helium purging and removal.)

Incidentally, the high volume of helium production is harvested at lower tech level planets with sufficient atmosphere to support aircraft. Those worlds tend to see a sort of “airship renaissance” because of the preponderance of pretty much free helium. In fact, most starship crews PAY for the purging service, making high volume (albeit very slow) transport of goods across planetary surfaces a fairly economical prospect. This aspect of space travel tends to earn low tech (TL-9 and below) starports the nickname “blimp fields.”

Finally, waste heat from the entire process is fed to a series of heat exchangers, a cooling array, and finally to the radiator banks on the outer hull.

Emergency Shutdown (SCRAM)
In the event that the reactor must be shut down quickly, the following things occur (almost always under computer control). Firstly, the constrictor/injector assembly shuts down and the injection check valve closes to prevent escaping flow from the tokamak. Secondly, the tokamak’s magnetic constriction field opens up to decompress the flow of plasma inside the toroid. The primary cooling jacket increases its flow to maximum, and the resulting superheated hydrogen is diverted away from the prefire chamber to emergency dumping ports overboard. (i.e., its vented into space.) Once the cooling jacket drops below a critical threshold temperature, the injector/constrictor assembly beings pumping slush l-hyd directly into the tokamak to cool the plasma sufficiently that it can also be vented overboard.

As you can guess, this process produces a great deal of thermal shock to the tokamak vessel shell itself. However, it’s a far better option than having the reactor detonate. The process requires between thirty seconds and a minute to de-energize a reactor, and generally leaves things a glowing mess. Assuming there was no real damage to the reactor vessel itself from the SCRAM process or the event that triggered it, it will take several hours to a few days to purge and restart the reactor. For this reason, most naval architects IMTU tend to break up power plants into several smaller arrays like the one described here.

Advancing Technology
The reactor described here is the stock, TL-9 assembly IMTU. I typically rate it for a thermodynamic efficiency between 38% and 40%. Windfalls in magnetic field and materials sciences increases the reactor efficiency (and reduces its size) accordingly. The components themselves don’t change much in function, only design and maybe geometry.

YMMV.
 
Hi Rhys !

Very pretty statement. I really like this description.
What I perhaps would think over is the electron-pick off from the plasma.
As You surely know the vast amount of the energy resulting from a fusion reaction is of kinetic type and radiation.
So I would just suggest the use just one more component, which is able to brake high kin particles and radiation by producing vast amount of electrons, which were collected by a brother of your "electron pick-off" device.
That would be a kind of ionisation harvesting.

Just a thought.

Regards,

Mert
 
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
Hi Rhys !

Very pretty statement. I really like this description.
What I perhaps would think over is the electron-pick off from the plasma.
As You surely know the vast amount of the energy resulting from a fusion reaction is of kinetic type and radiation.
So I would just suggest the use just one more component, which is able to brake high kin particles and radiation by producing vast amount of electrons, which were collected by a brother of your "electron pick-off" device.
That would be a kind of ionisation harvesting.

Just a thought.

Regards,

Mert
Well, the exact nature of the device is up for grabs, but "pick-off coil" sounded cool to my players so I went with it. (I do like to think this stuff through, but at some point one needs to just back off the theory and play the game
) In theory, its a simple process. Since the plasma is already ionized, all you need to do is use magnetic fields to separate the charges.

I envision this device as another toroidal holding chamber with a field separator, send the electrons "above plane" through one shunt, and the positively charged residual mass "below plane" through another. That lets the reactor plasma "orbit" in comfort while the pickoff coil does its magic. Since the sketch I had done of the device was essentially a "doughnut" with coils extending above and below, the "coil" name kinda stuck.

That old bit of notebook paper is long since gone to the great papershreder in the sky. Maybe I'll sit down at some point and sketch this stuff out again.

Oh, you could probably harvest some more electricity by means of induction coils as well. All of that moving mass of charge has to produce a ton of EMF.
 
The thing you described is essentially the "front" part of an ECD - electron capture detector, which is widely used in chemical analysation equipment e.g. GC


Anyway a sketch would be nice, so we could include it into our deckplans...
 
Originally posted by TheEngineer:
The thing you described is essentially the "front" part of an ECD - electron capture detector, which is widely used in chemical analysation equipment e.g. GC


Anyway a sketch would be nice, so we could include it into our deckplans...
Heh, well its good to know my fertile imagination is good for something other than fertilizer :cool:

I'll see what I can do about the sketches. Don't expect anything too soon however.
 
This residual helium is stored elsewhere and forms part of the ship’s wastes. This is usually purged during starport refueling. (Part of the refueling costs is the cost of helium purging and removal.)
Hi Rhys,

Why keep it stored within the ship, why not just dump it into vacuum or atmo, after all it's inert, harmless gas.

Great Description though, do you mind if I use it in my games?

Many Thanks
 
Originally posted by Commander Drax:
Hi Rhys,

Why keep it stored within the ship, why not just dump it into vacuum or atmo, after all it's inert, harmless gas.

Great Description though, do you mind if I use it in my games?

Many Thanks
Well, in many places you would. Especially if nobody wanted the stuff. But despite the fact that helium is essentially inert, it does have the nasty habit of inhibiting the breathing process when present in concentration. Thus, a sudden release of the stuff is hazardous for a few moments. I had figured IMTU that it would just be pumped out as part of the ship's wastes. What followed (use in dirigibles) fell out of a "great, what do we do with all this stuff?" type question.

When you figure that a hundred thousand cubic meter blimp can carry 400 passengers and the better part of a thousand tons of cargo, at sustained 60kph speeds for very cheap operational costs, and the whole thing will cost less than ten average air/rafts? Well, all that helium suddenly became valuable.

Its kind of a "waste not, want not" type philosophy. And you wouldn't see it on all worlds. Atmo would have to be standard or better for one thing.
 
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