How To Cross A Rift...

[aramis]

The TTA explicitly states you can jump to the empty hexes in those certain spots, and then puts a calibration point station at one of them (which would imply that, if one is willing to pay KCr 2.5 per Td, one could buy fuel there. (That extra KCr2 is for the shipping cost and deadhead leg on the fuel transport).

It doesn't say you can jump to all of them. (It just strongly implies that, by allowing it on all the empty hexes surrounding the spinward main.)

Not all Refs allow it. Not all refs have the big red book, either.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Sup-7s description of demountable tanks implies it. It is mentioned in Adventure 4 as well. (I believe.) I have never seen a problem with jumping to an empty hex. The only problem is there is no fuel source to refuel with. But if you bring your own fuel... Now finding something in an empty hex without a stellar body to anchor it to, you better know where you are going. Hence the calibration points. They are mentioned in Rebellion SOurcebook, Gateway to Destiny, and 1248, so you don't need to have the Big Red BOok to use the concept.

One key point is that, because of bulk, it is extremely expensive to ship fuel. And putting a second jump point in is even more expensive. (About three to four times as expensive.) Remember a tanker has to get in and back out again. For a jump 2 refuel point it is only 40% of the ships volume to go there and come back out. For a Jump 3 point it is 60% and for a J4 point 80%. Keeping a Jump-4 or higher route open is going to actually require intervening jump points. (And a secret Jump-6 route is actually going to require, at a minimum it be a Jump-3 route.)

To give you an example, a Jump ship (Supp-9) would require 3000 tons of jump fuel (Its normal load) to carry 2000 T of Fuel into a jump-4 point, then it would require to refuel so it can make the jump 4 back out. (2000 T.) Ooops.

For the higher corridors, your tanker is going to have to use Drop Tanks and have enough internal fuel to jump back out just to carry a semi useful load. (And it is going to have to be large.)

Equipping your ships with droptanks instead makes more economic sense. Especially if you are jumping from a freindly base so the tanks can be recovered and reused.

For Jump-2 and Jump-3 routes, you will need 3 tankers to supply the second point. One to actually make the delivery, one to provide enough fuel for the tanker to get to the second point and one to provide the fuel for it to get back.
(And we still haven't put all that much fuel at the first point.)

Economically Calibration points don't make much sense. Militarily they make tons of sense, but building a Rift Courier actually makes more sense. (More flexibility.) After all if the enemy locates your Calibration point and uses a warship with droptanks it can destroy your base and start stranding ships.

Originally posted by Aramis:
The TTA explicitly states you can jump to the empty hexes in those certain spots, and then puts a calibration point station at one of them (which would imply that, if one is willing to pay KCr 2.5 per Td, one could buy fuel there. (That extra KCr2 is for the shipping cost and deadhead leg on the fuel transport).

It doesn't say you can jump to all of them. (It just strongly implies that, by allowing it on all the empty hexes surrounding the spinward main.)

Not all Refs allow it. Not all refs have the big red book, either.

 

[spank]

Any idea If the tanks can be collapsed, and what the collapsed volume is?

 

[mike wightman]

FromTCS:
Collapsible tanks - large fuel bladders installed in the cargo hold. The fuel must be pumped to the normal fuel tankege before it can be used (3hours).
When not in use they take up 1% of their full volume.
Cost 500Cr per ton.
Demountable tanks - sturdy fuel tanks that are usually installed in the cargo hold, and take up space whether full or empty. The fuel carried can be used by the ship's engines immediately.
Cost 1000Cr per ton.
Exterior demountable tanks - similar to the above, but mounted on the outside. The ship is (re)classified as unstreamlined with them mounted.
The ship's tonnage in increased by the size of the tanks, which affects engine performance.
Cost is 1500Cr per ton.
Drop tanks - similar to the above but they can be dropped before jump, increasing drive performance.
Cost 1000Cr per ton, plus the ship must be designed to accomidate them at a cost of 10000Cr or they can be added later for a cost of 1000Cr per ton.

TNE and T4 starship design added demountable tanks that can be collapsed to 25% of their full volume when not in use.

T4 added exterior conformal tanks, these can be no larger than 20% of the volume of the ship, but they maintain streamlining.

Note that T4 allows all exterior tanks to be fitted with explosive bolts so that it can be jettisoned in an emergency.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Wow - what a lot of great ideas! Thanks everybody. I can't get online but once a week. Sorry I haven't said anything.

Hope everyone is doing great!

Scout

 

[aramis]

Ecomomics of calibration points make a single jump-2 CP viable.

Keep in mind, most commercial ships can make money (with a good crew and some patience) on 2J2 tankage aboard; careful selection (and being able to wait for a full load; or alternatively, having a warehouse which collects load materials ahead of time) can make a refueled in deep space jump viable; therefore, collapseables make sense for covering, say, a J8 rift. Load that A2 with full Collapseables for a second J2, jump 2 to a CP, 2J2 to next cp, then refuel 1 J2 and j2 in to destination. It cuts typical profit margins to nil, but on a good run (or with a good broker aboard or at both ends), such a run can turn a decent profit. This is true under Bk2 and T20 (had players do it in both), but not under MT/TNE/T4/CTBk7... the MP system reduces profit margin potential, while raising the floor somewhat.

Two of those jumps fuel cost is 5 times, assuming normal shipping rate doubled for the deadhead back from the CP. Yes, it's 4 jumps, for a 6-7 week cycle, but with a good broker and warehouse, it can provide steady runs. Just restrict yourself to cargos with more than KCr6 expected adjustment per ton for your broker. (IE, if your broker value is high, say 3, and that can be expected to shift 10% per level, then you need values of KCr10 per ton base or better.) Trader skill becomes valuable for getting that first die on the table BEFORE committing to purchase. If it's a 1, go for it. If its a 6, forget it.

Actual shipping cost per ton (assumign all fuel bought) on a 2J2 CP Refueler at 1000Td under HG runs to (salaries and payment included) KCr3 per ton; thus the J2 CP should charge 3500 CR per ton. If it buys unrefined, and refines its own, that can be pushed down a tad.

 

[BetterThanLife]

A single jump 2 calibration point? But you are putting it out at J-4. How do you keep it supplied with fuel? That is where the economics fall apart. Keeping the tanks full. If you don't use drop tanks then 80 percent of your load is fuel for the trip. If you do use drop tanks at the start of the run then 60% of your tonnage is fuel for the trip. How do you carry enough fuel to make the CP work? To have a useful load of fuel available at the calibration pointYou would have to be able to tank up 2 parsecs from the calibration point. Then ou will still be limited to less than 40% of your mass in deliverable fuel. (Even if you are running a flying gas can.) Jump 6 is worse. (Though if you are using huge tankers to ensure passage by small couriers it would work. Which is why it makes sense for the Navy to set up such an endeavor.)


How would this work in terms of Cargo. Cargo is paid based on transit to an announced destination. A flat rate of 1000Cr per ton. (Regardless of distance.) Now fuel expended in this plan works out to burning no less than 3 times the fuel you deliver. (If you are maxed out in fuel that you are delivering. ) (To the second jump 2 CP or to the Jump 4 CP.) (ANd that ignores PP fuel.)

Am I figuring this worng?

 

[mike wightman]

There is a difference between an empty hex and a callibration point.
From The Regency Sourcebook:

...they consist of a natural source of hydrogen, typically a comet nucleus or other icy body, but rogue planets are rarely found and used for these purposes. These natural calibration points are discovered and exploited, not constructed.

 

[aramis]

Bhoins:

I'm putting civil CP's at J2 out from each end of a J8 path.

the 2J2 tanker is 1000Td, crew 5, a little over 400 Td fuel DELIVERED, exclusive of own ops fuel for both j2, out and back, under HG design sequences. Big thing is the MCr1.4___ per month payments; on a subsidized route, the ops costs drop RADICALLY. I got the above nummbers by taking the cost of crew, ops fuel (4wk, 2j2), and crew salaries by CT (TTB). Total this for the month (which works out to be the ops cycle), and divide all this by the cargo space available, and you get a cost per ton to ship (deadhead leg included). This is figuring actual costs to the ship; since the actual costs well exceed the listed freight rates, and the situation is exceptional (if not extortional), figuring out the costs is a viable method of determining how much they'll charge for fuel... or LS replenishment!

The whole point is that you can get most A2's across 8 Parsecs if need be. (Cost per ton goes up to almost 8K for the second hop, as the fuel costs go up by a factor of 7; having a few sets of demountables hanging by is probably a good investment...)

If you have a large tank farm with a small PP, Command Center/hab, and FPP, you can haul unrefined out to it, and refine on site...making Cr400 per ton right there...

To Explain the setup better, each {_} is a hex
{A}{_}{1}{_}{_}{_}{2}{_}{B}
A-B straight run: 8 Pc
A-1: 2Pc
1-2: 4 Pc (2j2)
2-B: 2 Pc

Useage: an A2 with demountables for second J2 fuel.
Loads full fuel tankage: jumps to 1. Refils to 2J2 aboard, plus 4 wks LS & PP.
Jumps to emty spot in middle. Jumps again to reach CP2. Refills to 1J2, and at least 2 weeks worth of pp and LS, just for safety, and jumps on to B.

that's 80 Td at normal cost, and 80 Td at 7x normal cost; plus PP and LS recharges.the 6 week total op is only 3x normal crew costs and payment set-asides, despite the 4 jumps... so a really good load can make it profitable.

Under MT/TNE, it's actually better (fuelwise) to use a single J4 drive (25% hull) rather than a J2 with 2 jumps of fuel (30% of hull), and still use a 3 jump schedule. (A-1-2-B) Mostly because you can't afford to put a CP at 4 hx out; fuel costs become ansolutely prohibitive. (more

Under all editions: if you have Reuseable external drop tanks, customers without 2Jx can borrow them from you, you recover them after their jump, and have them ready for next customer.

as for the RegSB entry: that's one form of CP, and the one used in that book to exclusion of other uses. Other items (colloquially referred to as CP) are sometimes stations.

This kind of situation IS PRICEY... but it is feasable, especailly for some of the islands cluster and other, similarly isolated, systems.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Aramis,
OK that does work. Though you certainly aren't shipping at standard rates.

On the other hand to cross that same space if you had a starship with J-3 drives and Drop tanks you could hit the station on the far side wihtout hitting the near side one. And then you would only be buying J2 fuel at the inflated prices (or assuming your company owns the CP) inflated costs. You would also have to have stations on either side but I would assume you had those anyway to start the tanker voyages. And yes that is definitely preferable to establishing a CP in the middle.

Fueling a refueling station more than jump 2 from the edge of a rift, or rather more than jump 2 from the source of fuel, is an extremely expensive proposition.

As an example has anyone, besides me, tried to make a run to Research Station Delta (RETINAE/Querion/Spinward Marches) from the Imperial side? Especially if you can't go through Swordworld or Zhodani space.

It is possible Just a pain in the butt. You need, at a minimum, J4 fuel tankage and refining capability. A Subliner could do it if it had a purification plant and carried Jump-1 fuel in the cargo hold. (A patrol Cruiser can do the same thing.)

Here is another silly question, how does a major transit hub, not on a main without water and without a Gas Giant maintain a Class A or B Starport? Obviously it is subsidized, but would fuel prices be higher? There are a couple that are even on XBoat routes! I mean the starport would have to pay Cr1000 per ton to get fuel in. (Freight cost) And even if they own the ships they are still paying one way or the other. And they are only charging Cr500 for refined or Cr100 for unrefined? You could of course go with speculative trade, scoop it yourself, refine it fill your holds with it and get Cr800-900 per ton.

But it is better to charge them freight cost for it. The ship does have to make mortgage payments.

 

[Straybow]

Exterior tanks don't work with the idea that ship hulls have a jump grid on the outside. You wouldn't be able to mount anything substantial to the hull and still be able to jump.

The jump grid for the ship would have to be designed to work with the exterior tanks, and those tank would have to have part of the grid on them.

How much of the jump engine cost and tonnage is assigned to the hull grid? Drop tanks could be far too expensive.

 

[mike wightman]

T4's FF&S2 specifically mentions hull grids and allows exterior tanks.
It's probably why they cost so much...

Drop tanks, on the other hand, would only need the hull grid extension if you don't drop them.

 

[aramis]

Bhoins: There are numerous ways to get that hydrogen, and many of them are surprisingly abundant sources.

Solar Skimming: Capturing charged flows of mostly hydrogen from, say, orbits 0-1. Not terribly efficient, but very doable with large scale magnetic and gravitic technologies.

Ammonia and Methane: Just cause there's no H2O doesn't mean no ammonia nor methane, nor Hydrogen Sulfide. All of which can be cracked for Hydrogen.

Other non-main worlds in system: few CT/MT/TNE systems are single orbital body systems; in fact, it's hard to wind up with a system without ANY hydrographics listed. And even then, A planetoid belt is likely to contain hydrogen sources if outside the ecosphere.

Atom Smashing: while not likely to be economically feasable, one can make some Hydrogen by smashing atoms together with the right velocities and ionizations. Usually while doing so for makeing much heavier stuff. And some of it is even duterium and tritium!

Oort Mining: Think 2J1 drive Colliers, in the 1-20KTd range. Jump to an oort object, collect it, refine it, jump back. Likely to do all refining aboard, simply for the sake of refuelling self. And the number of Oort/Kuyper objects estimated is actually terrifyingly large... even tho the denisty is way low.

The Kuyper/Oort mining and planetoid mining are the most universal. Costs per ton are actually well below the 500 for refned fuel, despite being hauled in... as fuel is free, and crew can be roboticised out for all but the most key positions. 2J1,M1,P1 means fairly cheap, and low crew need. Using robots for maintenance and engineering ratings removes the SR needs for those crewmen, but adds up-front capital costs.

Under MT, those tytpe systems can actually turn a decent profit.

Now, if you hae another world whcih is awlays less than 6 days away, and has ammonia, methane, or water, you can buid a Large Craft with even more efficiency.

Solar gathering is an extreme solution... but most of the "solar wind" is ionized hydrogen. Again, automation drives down costs, and reduces risks. Magnetic and gravitic condensation would make it collectable.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Straybow: Drop tanks, while expensive aren't exceptionally so and have been in traveller since LBB5 (High Guard). They are just something that is too expensive for normal use. And to really make them economically viable you have to have someone behind to recover them for you. Couriers, by there very nature, are not economically feasible ships, but they are definitely in use especially in the military. A Courier travelling from Naval Base to naval base would be the ideal use of drop tanks.

The second use would be the CE class. They use the Drop tanks for extra fuel undernormal operations but can drop them for better maneuverability or for high jumps.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Aramis: I know it is fairly rare for a system to be listed as having no gas giant and hydrographic percentage of 0. But for some reason there are three Class A Starports, that happen to be SUbsector Capitals that have no Gas Giant and no water. LUNION, Frenzie and ARAMIS, in the Spinward Marches. They even all have Naval bases. I just thought it a serious anonomaly that Three systems of obvious importance would have no ready source of fuel. Since the area was settled using Fusion powerplants, and jump drives one would think that these worlds would tend to be avoided and not developed into major systems.
I am not saying there is no fuel sources in those systems, but they are definitely not in the area of the Primary olanet in the system.

 

[mike wightman]

Alternatively those worlds you mentioned have laws against civilians refueling anywhere but the starport, hence the lack of water and gas giant symbol on the travel chart.
The fact that they all have Naval bases could be explained that the military restricts civillian refueling.
Plus, considering the cost of fuel processing plants, restricting the buying of fuel to the starport only is a licence for the fuel companies to print money

 

[aramis]

Aramis has a non-breathable atmosphere, and the city is underground. An atmosphere thatcould be mined for LHyd. (In fact, I suspect strongly that that is, in fact, the method.) It also has a scout base.

I'm not memory-conversant with the others.

Also not mentioned is moons: We can inferr from TTA that Aramis does not have a moon. The others might.

(heck, it's my second favorite world in the CT/MT TU... Wypoc is my favorite...)

 

[mike wightman]

I've got to ask - why Wypoc???

 

[phil644441]

<<slightly off-topic>>

As a teacher, it suddenly struck me how similar 'our' corporate attitude to gas giants and other sources of ready hydrogen is to the early industrial attitude to fossil fuels - our starships are dependent on non-sustainable fuel sources - for some races this might be OK but surely some galactic eco-nazis must be on the scene who would have a problem with this attitude from the 'younger' space travelling civilisations...?

AK

 

[BetterThanLife]

I am sure there are some, afterall we have Fanatic Vegitarians out to rid the Universe of Carnivores and Omnivores.

Are you advocating Wood burning powerplants?

Originally posted by Aristotle Kzin:
<<slightly off-topic>>

As a teacher, it suddenly struck me how similar 'our' corporate attitude to gas giants and other sources of ready hydrogen is to the early industrial attitude to fossil fuels - our starships are dependent on non-sustainable fuel sources - for some races this might be OK but surely some galactic eco-nazis must be on the scene who would have a problem with this attitude from the 'younger' space travelling civilisations...?

AK