CT Only: How To Reconcile TL?

[Supplement Four]

In the Third Imperium setting TL15 has been common for over a hundred years, experimental for several centuries before that. It started life as a mature TL12 culture.

I know that we've discussed this before, and you tend to take the view that the entire Imperium is comfortable with TL 15.

But, I look at a fringe subsector like Aramis, and I just can't agree.

There are 26 worlds in the Aramis subsector, with these TL's....

D
CC
BBBB
AAAAA
999
888
777
66
44
0

Sure, there are some hotspots of tech, like the 4 Imperial Naval Bases on Paya TL 9, Aramis TL 11, L' oeul d'Dieu TL 11, and Natoko TL 8.

But, where is all this TL 15 know-how coming from? Junidy is classified as TL 9, but because it is part of the Imperium, the citizens there are comfortable with TL 15 items?



And to your comment about tech being easy to use: that's only true to a point. Using a Windows based, point and click computer is easy. But, if I went back several tech levels and got a person from a 1800's Texas ranch, would it be easy for him? He might (doubtful) know how to type, but I bet he's struggle with the mouse. And, that's just the start of his issues.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think unless a character grew up on an interdicted low tech world -- and not necessarily even then -- they will probably understand the basics of Imperial tech.

So...

You grow up on Pysadi in the Aramis subector. TL 4. You know about higher tech because starships land at that marvel, the class C starport.

But, what you are used to is early WWI technology. You're used to horse-analogue drawn carriages. There's a steam train that runs between the major towns. Steam sailing ships on the oceans. Telephones exist, with lines, but so do telegraphs.

Airplanes are in their infancy. Balloons and dirigibles are used.

The major source of power is a coal fed furnace.

 

[mike wightman]

Notice that every one of the large merchants detailed in TTA is TL15 - and they travel throughout the subsector.
You have already mentioned there are four IN bases, that is four TL15 bases and four TL15 squadrons of ships minimum patrolling this subsector.

The Imperium recognises that this subsector is a route the Vargr or Zhodani could use to strike at the Imperium, hence the high number of naval bases not to mention all the TL15 hardware for the ground combat environment in the event hostilities kick off.

And it is still my contention that every type A or B starport within the Imperium has to be able to import TL15 spares to conduct annual maintainance on any civilian shipping that comes calling.

 

[mike wightman]

So...

You grow up on Pysadi in the Aramis subector. TL 4. You know about higher tech because starships land at that marvel, the class C starport.

But, what you are used to is early WWI technology. You're used to horse-analogue drawn carriages. There's a steam train that runs between the major towns. Steam sailing ships on the oceans. Telephones exist, with lines, but so do telegraphs.

Airplanes are in their infancy. Balloons and dirigibles are used.

The major source of power is a coal fed furnace.

And at the age of 18 you enlist in the Imperial Army and are shipped off world where you are trained in everything you need to know.

Twenty four years later fate has lead you to being steward on a fat trader that has gone off its subsidy route and is visiting your old homeworld...

 

[Supplement Four]

And it is still my contention that every type A or B starport within the Imperium has to be able to import TL15 spares to conduct annual maintainance on any civilian shipping that comes calling.

I would say that they've got some highly paid TL 15 specialists in there that work in an advanced dock.

But I wouldn't say that an A class starport can build TL 15 starships, regardless of the local TL.

 

[Supplement Four]

And at the age of 18 you enlist in the Imperial Army and are shipped off world where you are trained in everything you need to know.

You've convinced me before that there is an Imperial Army, though my estimation is that it is not a large force.

Where are the Imperial Army bases again?

 

[creativehum]

LOL!

You know, I think you've made me realize that I do take a default grim view of the Traveller universe.

I think I think of the frontier and the Spinward Marches because that's where I've run the vast majority of my games over the decades. I can't remember the last time I ran a game close to the heart of the Imperium. maybe never. I know I've played in some Solomani Confederacy games, but, heck, that was 40 years ago.

To be clear -- my default setting for a Traveller game is always beyond the borders of civilization, rough and trouble, and full of danger. (After all, I prefer the 1977 ship encounter tables, which will cause trouble much more regularly for PCs than the 1981 table.)

After all my examples involved the threat of being spaced for being a stowaway, merc companies tromping across your planet, and being captured by pirates.

I didn't mention playing anywhere near the heart of the Imperium. (I did suggest one model where the PCs, having grown up closer to the heart of the Imperium, ship out to the Spinward Marches to make their fortune. Of course, this means ignoring all concerns of "homeworld" since such a homeworld is months upon months, if not years away from the frontier setting of play. The homeworld in such a case is there to provide color and information about the character. Where it exists back in the civilized parts of interstellar space really doesn't matter. It's like in "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" we never visit the home towns of our lead characters; in "The Man Who Would Be King" we never see scene set in England.)

Did I write anything to suggest anything different?

 

[agorski]

Let's say a Player Character is from Ruie in the Regina subsector. The planet lies just outside of Imperial space, is an Amber Zone, and is TL 7 with a C class starport.

The player wants to go into the Navy, and the Ref pulls out Book 5. The Ref decides that the Ruie System Defense Force is the only navy available to the character (as Ruie is not in the Imperium and not part of a star cluster for a subsector navy).

Ruie meets the bare minimum requirements for a planetary navy according to Book 5.

The roll is made, and the player successfully creates a Naval character. The PC goes three terms.

All this guy knows is TL 7 equipment!

I'm surprised no one has considered the possibility that the System Defense Force uses equipment at a higher tech level than the world. Ships purchased elsewhere and jump shuttled in. The class C starport should be able to maintain them.

 

[McPerth]

I'm surprised no one has considered the possibility that the System Defense Force uses equipment at a higher tech level than the world. Ships purchased elsewhere and jump shuttled in. The class C starport should be able to maintain them.

According CT, annual maintenance must be preformed at a class A or B starport. Starport C can make repairs, but not annual maintenence.

Also, having higher TL SDBs tahn your own, will bring you problems for repairs (As maintenance is sheduled, I guess its easier to plan for them, but damages and breakdowns are not so regular nor planed).

 

[Supplement Four]

According CT, annual maintenance must be preformed at a class A or B starport. Starport C can make repairs, but not annual maintenence.

Also, having higher TL SDBs tan your own, will bring you problems for repairs (As maintenance is sheduled, I guess its easier to plan for them, but damages and breakdowns are not s oregular nor planed).

Good comment. Actually, both are good ideas. If feasible, I can see a world purchasing ships from other yards. Yet, as McPerth points out, feasibility is a tricky thing.

Plus, you've got to have the local personnel to run those high tech SDBs. People from a TL 7 world, even with a Class A starport, may have trouble crewing those vessels.

 

[kilemall]

To be clear -- my default setting for a Traveller game is always beyond the borders of civilization, rough and trouble, and full of danger. (After all, I prefer the 1977 ship encounter tables, which will cause trouble much more regularly for PCs than the 1981 table.)

More importantly, the 1977 table aligns risk with reward- there is gold in passengers and cargo value at those A starports, but more danger. The backwater is safer to build up the ships before you can tackle the big bucks/big pirate gold mines.

1981 on the other hand is more 'realistic' in that anti-piracy efforts would be maximized around top trade worlds and less so in marginal systems.

1981 version is a better rational simulation- 1977 is a better game.

 

[Condottiere]

Generally speaking, if a regime has the money, they can buy military toys at a technological level way above than that they can maintain and operate, which is where Imperium military personnel could be lent out, or private military contractors contracted.

As regards to technology dissemination, South East Asia is inundated with smart cellphones, and before that, scooters.

Anything that's actually useful and adds value is likely to get imported.

 

[Supplement Four]

Notice that every one of the large merchants detailed in TTA is TL15 - and they travel throughout the subsector.

I'm guessing that you are saying that because of the drives. The first vessel depicted, the Type RT Long Liner uses a 1,000 ton hull (available at TL 10), a Model/4 computer (available at TL 10), but a class V Jump drive and power plant that requires TL 15.



Let me speculate here.

Much of the ship can be built at TL 10. It is just the Jump Drive and the Power Plant that requires TL 15 (The M-Drive E can be built at TL 10).

The class A starport at Aramis is TL 11, but it must also be able to service TL 15 vessels even if it can't build them.

I see strong evidence that the two TL 15 systems (major systems, no doubt) are imported to Aramis. The ship is constructed at TL 10 or TL 11, with the modular J-Drive and PP imported.

Book 2 does stipulate that parts are modular, yes?





To Your Point

The top of page 56, TTB, does say, "Any class A starport has a shipyard which can build any kind of ship, including starships with jump drives...."

This can be read two ways.

First, one can read it as saying that any Class A starport can build ANY kind of ship.

But, that's not completely true. I don't think you'd agree that a TL 17 vessel can be built at any class A starport.

So, when it says, "...any kind of ship..." it must be talking about starships, spaceship, and small craft. The class A starport on Aramis can indeed build starships with jump drives, but those are limited to TL 11 vessels.



Class A Services

Creating and servicing are two different jobs. I can go down to the automotive store, buy a new carburetor, and install it on my car. That part is imported to me. I cannot create the carburetor.

The TL 11 starport at Aramis does have a high tech dock for servicing (not building) TL 15 starships.





Multiple Starships

There's a note that says the Imperiallines vessels have two ships operating out of each base.

There are a total of 9 Imperiallines stations in the Aramis subsector, so, out of the 80 parsecs of space in that subsector, there are a grand total of 18 Imperiallines vessels in that region.

 

[Supplement Four]

RE: TL 15 service @ TL 11 Class A Port



Just a note: This can easily be figured with my proposed rules for Personal Tech Level as described in this thread.

Aramis sports a TL 11 Class A port.

The port can service TL 15 vessels.

The port can build TL 11 starships.



By my proposed PTL rule, there is a large workforce, with people mustering out everyday, from the Imperial Navy and Scout Bases on Aramis. These are TL 15 folks.

Several natives who grow up on Aramis, who otherwise do not have PTL 15 due to their careers, can attain TL 15 status by reaching a EDU 15 (not probable).

More likely, though, the Aramis native, with PTL 11, will make the 4+ throw to be comfortable working on TL 15 equipment.

 

[creativehum]

Plus, you've got to have the local personnel to run those high tech SDBs. People from a TL 7 world, even with a Class A starport, may have trouble crewing those vessels.

Why? Why can't a low tech world higher in advisors for use and maintenance.

Tech level was originally a) an index of relative Tech Levels (not a literal map to historical earth tech) and b) what a world can manufacture locally. All sorts of goods can be traded between worlds of different Tech Levels; all sorts of expertise can be hired in between worlds of different Tech Levels.

We know this because the rules tell us the implied setting found in the actual rules of the game expects this.

See also: The history of trade, technology, and warfare of Earth.

 

[creativehum]

More importantly, the 1977 table aligns risk with reward- there is gold in passengers and cargo value at those A starports, but more danger. The backwater is safer to build up the ships before you can tackle the big bucks/big pirate gold mines.

1981 on the other hand is more 'realistic' in that anti-piracy efforts would be maximized around top trade worlds and less so in marginal systems.

1981 version is a better rational simulation- 1977 is a better game.

The 1981 table, as far as I can tell, reflects an influential political power that can arrange for anti-piracy efforts in the middle of a so-called "frontier."

The 1977 table reflects (again, as far as I am concerned) is more realistic for an actual frontier setting beyond the reach of a "remote, centralized government."

But, again, that's me.

The last time I emphisized "remote" in that important passage from Classic Traveller text someone got really mad at me. (Still don't know why. But it's Traveller. People hang on to plenty of things I don't understand in these conversations!)

 

[Supplement Four]

Why? Why can't a low tech world higher in advisors for use and maintenance.

I don't think that hiring off-worlders and training locals for higher tech maintenance is anywhere near having a space force where all are severely higher tech than the local TL.

Tech level was originally a) an index of relative Tech Levels (not a literal map to historical earth tech) and b) what a world can manufacture locally. All sorts of goods can be traded between worlds of different Tech Levels; all sorts of expertise can be hired in between worlds of different Tech Levels.

TL also means what is available locally. Thus, a TL 5 computer may be vastly different than a TL 15 version. If you can operate the punch card computer that takes up an entire room, is that like operating a thin glove that has wires running to the finger tips and a 3D "screen" that appears in front of the viewer's eyes?




PTL

I've been thinking about this type of thing a lot, and I've come up with the PTL = Personal Tech Level.

See this thread.

Let's go back to our TL 7 world with the Class A starport.

The Type SB System Defense Boat, from Sup 7, is a TL 12 vessel.

Some people on the world will be able to crew that vessel, even though they're used to TL 7 technology. These are the few with high educations (EDU 12+) and those who have just been exposed to higher tech, maybe through the starport or through their career.

The Tech Crisis is 12-7=5

Any TL 7 local who rolls 5+ on the 2D Tech Crisis roll can crew the TL 12 SDB.

I like this new I've devised. It seems to fit my style of game well.

Though, this is a much broader interpretation of the rule than I would normally use.

 

[aramis]

The last time I emphisized "remote" in that important passage from Classic Traveller text someone got really mad at me. (Still don't know why. But it's Traveller. People hang on to plenty of things I don't understand in these conversations!)

Quite possibly because the tables weren't revised for the far less "remote" Solomani Rim. And the Marches, as presented in TTA and SMC, aren't really that remote in feel, despite being as far from the 3I core as one can get.

In this case, Judges Guild did a far better job than GDW for sector flavor - they changed the default ship encounter tables for at least one the sectors they did.

 

[creativehum]

I don't think that hiring off-worlders and training locals for higher tech maintenance is anywhere near having a space force where all are severely higher tech than the local TL.

No. But a few of these trained loacals will, in fact, use this high tech training to their advantage and move up the ladder, getting more and more training, get wanderlust, muster out, and become travellers with a high TL capability than the people around them.

Because that's is the point of this exercise, yes? To see how a traveller might come into existence from a low Tech world? Not how everyone who might work for a hired on high tech force might become facile in all high tech equipment?

After all, the entire point of the prior service rules (as stated clearly in the Book 1 text, and I assume the other two editions of the Basic Traveller rules) is to give a PC the experience needed to "deal with the adventuring universe." By definition then a Player Character generated with prior service does muster out with "the expertise necessary for the active life." That was Miller's point, right?

If I'm wrong about the point of this exercise being about producing travellers, I apologize.

TL also means what is available locally.

Yes. Absolutely. That's my point. Hired-in military gear and training available only to the planet's ruling government isnt' available locally. It was imported.

But a local isn't at some sort of genetic disadvantage or doomed to misunderstanding because of how he spent the first decade and a half of his life. Again, the point made above bears on this: The entire point of prior service is bring the PC up to snuff for "the adventuring universe." Not everyone from the planet will gain the needed expertise, not everyone who serves alongside the PC will gain the needed expertise, but the PC will... by definition. The wonderful game to play within that is to say, "What cool things happened to this guy or gal during their prior service to let them move from their humble beginnings to become a traveller?"

****

Now, it occurs to me I have been digging at the fundamental point of your fun. Because I honestly don't see why you are making this so complicated. The whole Personal Tech Level thing is... well, I don't get it at all. But you do. So if I'm getting in the way of your fun, or being annoying, let me know. Because I'm looking at what you're thinking through and thinking, "Dude, why are you making this so hard when the game, in its blunt wisdom, doesn't need you to solve a problem... because there is not problem." But if you want to make a problem and solve, that's cool and I'll be quiet.

 

[McPerth]

TL also means what is available locally.

Yes. Absolutely. That's my point. Hired-in military gear and training available only to the planet's ruling government isnt' available locally. It was imported.

Yes, and the encounter table reflects it when most military units you can find have equipment 1-2 TL higher than the planet's.

OTOH, remember that, unlike current Earth where any country can buy higher TL equipment, any spare or piece you need will take at least 2 weeks to arrive to you if you're using foreign tech in Traveller...

While this may not be of much importance for a higher TL rifle, as you have more, for your few precious SDBs things may change.