How ubiquitous would nuclear missiles be in Traveller?

[Rigel Stardin]

Comment on Missiles:

Real world atmosphere missiles travel faster than almost every known fighter out there. They don't have to worry about gees because their is no pilots. Therefore I suggest that missiles travel faster than 6 Gs because how else would the missiles strike a ship travelling 6 Gs?

 

[aramis]

Comment on Missiles:

Real world atmosphere missiles travel faster than almost every known fighter out there. They don't have to worry about gees because their is no pilots. Therefore I suggest that missiles travel faster than 6 Gs because how else would the missiles strike a ship travelling 6 Gs?

We'll take an show you... we'll assume missiles of 1G and ships of 1G for illustrative purposes. Each line is 1 turn

0> A______________________________B___ <1 Both accelerate towards eachother
1> _A____________________________B____ <1 B holds. A Accelerates
2> ____A________________________B_____ <1 B accelerates away A Accel
3> ________A____________________B_____ <0 B launches...
4> _____________A______________MB_____ <0 <1 A spots missile, and accelerates away...
3> _________________A________M___B____ >1 <2
2> ____________________A__M________B__ >2 <3
1> _____________________*_____________B >2 Interception. On hit, boom; on miss, A can continue to evade indefinitely.

 

[Jame]

Comment on Missiles:

Real world atmosphere missiles travel faster than almost every known fighter out there. They don't have to worry about gees because their is no pilots. Therefore I suggest that missiles travel faster than 6 Gs because how else would the missiles strike a ship travelling 6 Gs?

I assumed this almost from the beginning.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Thanks for those responses, all very good grist for the mill.

 

[Whipsnade]

Therefore I suggest that missiles travel faster than 6 Gs because how else would the missiles strike a ship travelling 6 Gs?

I assumed this almost from the beginning.

Gents,

You both need to appreciate that acceleration is not a measure of speed.

Instead, acceleration is a measure of the speed of change.

Starships, spaceships, and missiles will all be moving along vectors. Given enough time, a ship capable of only 1gee changes can have a vector just as "big" or "bigger" than a ship capable of 6gee changes. These vectors, and a ship's ability to change them as expressed by it's gee rating thus "lock" a ship into finite number of future positions and, because those number of future positions are finite, interceptions can occur in some cases.

When the interplay of position, vectors, and possible changes are examined, the many possibilities for interceptions become readily apparent. There will be situations in which a 6gee missile cannot ever intercept a 1gee trader and there will be situations in which a 6gee missile can easily intercept a 6gee fighter. It all depends on the situation.

This is all very hard to explain purely by text, although Wil's diagram is a great help. If I could sit down with each of you, pull out a Mayday map and a handful chits, and spend the next five minutes or so showing you examples, you'd both understand intuitively what I'm trying - and failing - to explain with only words.


Regards,
Bill

 

[sabredog]

And don't forget to add the vector of the firing ship into the beginning vector of the missile being fired...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Remember I'm vaguely faimlar with Traveller through Classic and Mega versions of the game. I have picked up the books so I don't look like a total idiot. However, (and this is just thought on missiles in any game system using the real world models) there are dumb missiles and then there are smart missiles. A Light Anti-tank Missile (LAW) is a dumb missiles because it is a line of sight rocket. The AMRAAM has a microprocessor and radar guidance system this is a smart weapon.

The only way to avoid smart missile is through the pilot's ability to fly his ship and the use of Electronic countermeasure. Since we're talking about Nukes, it doesn't really matter because "ALMOST" does count.

And while were on the subject, has anyone thought about the EMP effect on a ship?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Getting back to the main issue;

This has been a bugaboo of mine for some time. In a future with fantastic technology, the harvesting and control of the graviton, would nukes be anything to worry about? Not that they don't still make a nice big bang, but would not some "grav" weapon be a lot more effective? I'm not sure.

Nukes came up in our gaming sessions, but rarely. I see them more like muskets in the days of modern small arms. Dangerous as heck, but perhaps not the killing weapon of choice.

In short, how ubiquitous? Probably not very. They're big, nasty, and messy. The 57th century sure has cleaner and more efficient WMDs.

 

[Whipsnade]

I have picked up the books so I don't look like a total idiot.

Rigel,

Please believe me, I am in no way suggesting you are an idiot. Far from it as a matter of fact.

I've played a lot of Mayday, CT's ship combat game which uses two dimensional vector movement. I know that if we two sat down with a Mayday map and some chits, you'd very quickly see what Wil and I are trying to describe with only words.

However, (and this is just thought on missiles in any game system using the real world models) there are dumb missiles and then there are smart missiles.

Now we're get into the murky world of Special Supplement 3: Missiles. You can design all sorts of dumb missiles, smart missiles, fast missiles, slow missiles, short ranged missiles, long ranged missiles, and many, many, many other types of missiles.

Integrating them seamlessly into the game, however, is another question!

The only way to avoid smart missile is through the pilot's ability to fly his ship and the use of Electronic countermeasure.

Careful attention to vectors produces the former in Mayday while agility and computer ratings model both in HG2.

Since we're talking about Nukes, it doesn't really matter because "ALMOST" does count.

Nukes in space act much differently than nukes in an atmosphere, no shock wave, lesser heat pulse, etc. Of course nuke detonation laser warheads on missiles mean "almost" counts in their case.

And while were on the subject, has anyone thought about the EMP effect on a ship?

HG2 has a damage table just for EMP and EMP-like effects. Nukes roll both on it and the normal damage table.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Getting back to the main issue;

This has been a bugaboo of mine for some time. In a future with fantastic technology, the harvesting and control of the graviton, would nukes be anything to worry about? Not that they don't still make a nice big bang, but would not some "grav" weapon be a lot more effective? I'm not sure.

Nukes came up in our gaming sessions, but rarely. I see them more like muskets in the days of modern small arms. Dangerous as heck, but perhaps not the killing weapon of choice.

In short, how ubiquitous? Probably not very. They're big, nasty, and messy. The 57th century sure has cleaner and more efficient WMDs.

I agree with you. I see nukes more as weapons that punish a world for doing something horribly wrong (Blasting @#*&^! back to the stone age!!!) or an area of deinal weapon (Sorch and burn policy). The horrible total in lifeforms and affects would galvinize the forces they would be used against.

The second thing is an attacking force would want to pacify the civilian population as soon as possible so they could move the bulk of their forces to the next disputed world. Therefore they would want the least amount of bloodshed so the population see the takeover as a change in government and not a military take over.

Bio-weapons and Nukes are defenitely a no-no in galaxy warfare.

Try Energy Conversion Bombs instead...

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Whipnade:
What I meant by my remark was Traveller was only a source for the game system I ran back in the day. If I come across as a dimwit it is my own fault because I'm not faimlar with the rules everyone is Talking about. I'm just interject my thoughts and ideas into the conversation, if they are not compatible with the systems your using, I expect being to told that. So no harm or no foul. I'm just trying to learn about Traveller and participate in the community.

 

[sabredog]

I agree with you. I see nukes more as weapons that punish a world for doing something horribly wrong (Blasting @#*&^! back to the stone age!!!) or an area of deinal weapon (Sorch and burn policy). The horrible total in lifeforms and affects would galvinize the forces they would be used against.

The second thing is an attacking force would want to pacify the civilian population as soon as possible so they could move the bulk of their forces to the next disputed world. Therefore they would want the least amount of bloodshed so the population see the takeover as a change in government and not a military take over.

Bio-weapons and Nukes are defenitely a no-no in galaxy warfare.

Try Energy Conversion Bombs instead...

Mass drivers have been mentioned many times in fiction and reality as a WMD for this sort of thing.

Also, A-PAW weapons are discussed in JTAS for a high-tech method of stripping atmospheres and then erasing the planet surface. Meson guns are highly precise weapons of mass destruction on the battlefield - good for firing deep into bunkers, through mountains, heck, almost anything unless shielded by a black globe or meson shield.

And the bomb-pumped lasers (rules for which are in T:2300 or you can make your own, though I think they have them in Mongoose if you use that game) as mentioned by Whipsnade are also a viable alternative. I use them myself and just treat them as missiles until they go off. Then they are a PAW turret. Talk about a force multiplier.

So given that there are many alternatives, some of which are a lot more destructive or precise, you could just rule that for some reason nukes are not allowed in your game.

Myself, I have them in my for their very frightfulness. The Marines have the means to neutralize them and their radiation effects through dampers. If not, then they wear armor and suck it up while returning fire from collapsing round railguns and nuclear armed hunter-killer drones. Grav tanks fire fusion cannon and the divisional artillery is a meson gun to kill anything left standing or buried too deep for even a tac nuke. And the whole operation is supported by ortillery firing missiles and meson guns from orbit. Afterward a regiment's NBC unit cleans up where needed with dampers and so forth.

All this is available in canon (the FGMP is the standard small arm of the Marines even - shudder to think of how many rads that sucker puts out) so IMO worrying about nukes being too scary is kind of ridiculous. I mean, in a universe with meson guns and mass drivers don't nuclear missiles seem kind like the least of what you have to worry about as a commander?

 

[Whipsnade]

If I come across as a dimwit...

Rigel,

You're most definitely not coming across as a dimwit and I wanted to make sure you knew that!

Now that we've tidied up that particular business, let's return to our previously scheduled thread!


Regards,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Also, A-PAW weapons are discussed in JTAS for a high-tech method of stripping atmospheres and then erasing the planet surface. Meson guns are highly precise weapons of mass destruction on the battlefield - good for firing deep into bunkers, through mountains, heck, almost anything unless shielded by a black globe or meson shield.

Sabredog,

I cannot agree with you more strongly.

There is lots and lots of non-nuke nastiness in the 57the Century just waiting to zap, crush, pulp, fold, spindle, and mutilate your unwary players.

The various types of spinal mounts you mention seem ho-hum until you remember that in 435 the Imperium used the everyday weaponry available in the fleet to punish the rebel world of Ilelish by sterilizing the planet's entire equatorial region. It's said nearly seven centuries later the damage is still visible from space...

'Sup Strephon? Made any globe girdling deserts lately?

Meson guns alone have a thousand and one nasty uses and they don't just come in battleship sizes either. The Imperium's high-tech armored formations deploy meson gun "artillery" in gravitic vehicles which should be much easier the hijack than a Plankwell-class dreadnought. When you've got a device that can project huge amounts of explosive energy through or into solid objects, Dr. Evil won't be asking anymore for sharks with frikkin' laser beams on their heads.

Look at volcanoes for example. If they're active or can be active, they've a magma chamber tucked a few kilometers below them. Contrary to Jules Verne, there isn't a subway tunnel of sorts connecting the volcano's crater with the magma chamber, but there is a zone of fractured rock which acts as a plug of sorts. When pressure builds enough, lava and other goodies can force their way through that fractured zone like water seeping through a sponge, so...

... what if the rock in question was fractured a little more?

Sounds like a job for a meson gun, doesn't it?

This would be a great terraforming tool, it could assist with mining too as Piper suggests in the opening chapter of Uller Uprising.

It could also be used to really ruin someone's day or even someone's planet. Imagine someone goosing Mount Hood, Mount St. Helens, Mount Rainier, and the rest of the Cascades to life. Or the monster lurking below Yellowstone.

Ever hear of mega-tsunamis? They happen when a BIG chunk falls off a volcanic island into the ocean. The island of Hawaii shed a piece about the size of Mount Everest 10,000 years back or so and what would become California got hit with a wave estimated to be a kilometer high.

Surf's up, dude... Gnarly...

Anyway, a meson gun would be just the thing to "goose" a few more Everests loose, don't you think? Pick an island, run a few densitometer scans, map the existing faults, and then begin pecking away with meson blasts in the same manner ancient quarrymen used wooden wedges and water until the chunk in question slides off into the ocean.

And don't even get me started on what repulsors can be put too. Directed gravitic force beams used in missile defense? Or something far more Whipsnadian?


Regards,
Bill

 

[BlackBat242]

A great many things are well known, but if a current or insufficiently-long-out US serviceman writes them, he/she can be prosecuted, even tho' public sources provide the same info.

Many servicemen thus develop "good habits of self-redaction"... which may seem odd, but it's a form of self protection, and it often outlasts its need.

Oh, I understand that quite well... as a former USMC Sgt who worked on FLIR/laser systems for the A-6E & F/A-18 in the 1980s, I held a security clearance and had access to classified data on the systems I worked on.

Despite the A-6E having been taken out of service in 1999, and its FLIR system not being used for any other purpose or aircraft, I still have not mentioned any of the classified information I knew... and won't until it is formally declassified, whenever that might be.

However, I have seen some of that classified data in the public realm... and not confirmed its accuracy to anyone.


I had a feeling that the same security-consciousness was what generated the evasiveness of Bill's post, which is why I tried to be as polite as possible in my post.

 

[Peter Schutze]

While I understand all about vectors and rates of change I fail to see how it affects the basic premise of the question ... why are traveller missiles so comparatively slow ?

Air to air missiles these days have massive accelerations compared to their targets .... some probably have as good or better G ratings than Traveller missiles. There would be no point in modern heatseekers looping back to re- engage if it couldnt quickly cancel its vector and then chase down that enemy Mig .... we'd be back to the day of proximity detonation at first point of close appproach

 

[Icosahedron]

A few questions:

Sabredog: Would nukes have much 'frightfulness' if their effects are so easily cleaned up? Without the lingering radiation hazard they're just another big bang.

Whipsnade: As our resident nuke expert, what can you tell me about EMP and its effects on vehicles, communicators, computers, etc? Is it blocked by a Faraday cage? I'm running a game that's just had a couple of pulses. (For any of my players listening in, I may decide that the TU in question is an alternative reality in which the laws of physics are slightly altered to get the effects I want - I'm just curious about the reality...)
Oh, and what are the Whipsnadian uses of grav weapons?

I think a planet-buster ship would more likely use Meson guns than nukes. Unless you're using really huge nukes, the target area is probably bigger with a meson gun, the gun is more accurate and hence more discriminating, it's probably cheaper over its lifetime, it doesn't run out of ammo, there's no crew hazard, and there's no clean-up operation needed afterward before you can take over. And that's without using the geological advantages listed above.

Edit: Yes, I recognised the problems of confirming data leaked to the public domain after I posted...

 

[Whipsnade]

I had a feeling that the same security-consciousness was what generated the evasiveness of Bill's post, which is why I tried to be as polite as possible in my post.

BlackBat242,

And your post was extremely polite too. I took no umbrage from it and wouldn't even be discussing the topic now if I also didn't want you to think I had any feelings or thoughts about the post other than agreement with the point you made, understanding why you made the point, and respect for how you made that point.

Your post also allowed me to further explain myself and thus helped me make my point.

That's both a goal and an assist in my book.

Thank you for both your post and your understanding of why my post was written in the manner it was.


Regards,
Bill

 

[atpollard]

While I understand all about vectors and rates of change I fail to see how it affects the basic premise of the question ... why are traveller missiles so comparatively slow ?

Air to air missiles these days have massive accelerations compared to their targets .... some probably have as good or better G ratings than Traveller missiles. There would be no point in modern heatseekers looping back to re- engage if it couldnt quickly cancel its vector and then chase down that enemy Mig .... we'd be back to the day of proximity detonation at first point of close appproach

In Classic Traveller, the Maneuver Drive technology appears to be limited to 6G maximum and is not related to ship mass, but rather to ship volume. Grav drive Missiles cannot accelerate faster than 6G because small craft and starships cannot either. It is a game mechanics 'given'.

Reaction drives, like modern rockets, require about 90% of the volume and mass for fuel and would have much shorter ranges than typical Traveller combats. Note also that no aircraft tend to 6G accelerations. Few aircraft reach 1+ G acceleration (capable of accelerating straight up without the need for lift from the wings). Solid fuel rockets seem capable of no better than 3G.

Mongoose Traveller removed that limit and opens the door to faster missiles.

 

[sabredog]

A few questions:

Sabredog: Would nukes have much 'frightfulness' if their effects are so easily cleaned up? Without the lingering radiation hazard they're just another big bang.

You're right, they don't have much comparatively - and I feel the same way about them. However, I've found that for some reason players are scared by them more than they are by the other weapons available. As this thread shows, people are scared of nukes, but forget how much more destructive things like RP fusion guns, meson beams, and particle accelerators are.

Maybe its' because most people have seen them inaction while nobody has seen a spinal meson gun or a bay-sized repulsor pound a hill to dust like the mother of all MOABs.

And the radiation scares people. Meson guns and such seem like "clean" weapons, while nuclear fallout is something we all can understand in a primordial kind of way. You know, mutants and B-movie giant ants.

Finally, if you carpet bomb a world with really dirty nuclear weapons it seems so much more final, in a "sowing Carthage with salt" sort of way. I think there's something about that as an Imperial policy in the official TU?