Hydrogen Fueled Jump Drives

[creativehum]

A question about Jump Drive technology... which I hope can be answered without getting too far into the weeds.

In the 1977 edition of CT, fuel could be skimmed from Gas Giants... and gas giants alone. There was no mention at all of water, and, in fact, the word hydrogen is not in the text.

Reading it back when I was a teen, I assumed that this meant that exotic gasses in great bulk were required for the fuel.

Then, in the 1981 edition, there are rules for skimming water to get hydrogen... and suddenly the ships are fueled by hydrogen.

Now, whatever I Referee will be mine to referee as I wish, of course. But I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how hydrogen became the source of of powering Jump Drives.

Not retroactively through a series of hand-waved science justifications. But, since this is all fake, what the thinking was to make the access to unrefined fuel much easier than it was in the original rules.

Thanks!

 

[robject]

(I didn't know '77 didn't have water refuel)

I suppose it's because of starports: they have to fill up their fuel depots from somewhere, and if there's no GG in the system, then there has to be some other local source... "how about Hydrogen?"

 

[whulorigan]

A question about Jump Drive technology... which I hope can be answered without getting too far into the weeds.

In the 1977 edition of CT, fuel could be skimmed from Gas Giants... and gas giants alone. There was no mention at all of water, and, in fact, the word hydrogen is not in the text.

Reading it back when I was a teen, I assumed that this meant that exotic gasses in great bulk were required for the fuel.

Then, in the 1981 edition, there are rules for skimming water to get hydrogen... and suddenly the ships are fueled by hydrogen.

Now, whatever I Referee will be mine to referee as I wish, of course. But I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how hydrogen became the source of of powering Jump Drives.

Not retroactively through a series of hand-waved science justifications. But, since this is all fake, what the thinking was to make the access to unrefined fuel much easier than it was in the original rules.

Thanks!

I am not sure if I have a particular answer to your question, but I will make the observation that under CT:'77, Jump Drives did not require a power plant. Thus, there is nothing tying them to fusion (or any other stated power-production method). So, in a purely technical sense, what the fuel was, how it was used, or what it was used for could be just about anything, as long as it can be found in a gas giant atmosphere.

 

[Blue Ghost]

You might want to ask Avery, or have one of the mods put the question to Avery for comment.

Otherwise my answer is the same as whulorigan's. I was always under the impression that the fuel didn't have to be hydrogen purely, but something hydrogen based, or with the same kind of reaction qualities of hydrogen.

 

[77topaz]

You might want to ask Avery, or have one of the mods put the question to Avery for comment.

Otherwise my answer is the same as whulorigan's. I was always under the impression that the fuel didn't have to be hydrogen purely, but something hydrogen based, or with the same kind of reaction qualities of hydrogen.

Hence the fact you can have unrefined fuel as well as refined fuel (I expect the refined fuel has a higher proportion of hydrogen).

 

[Flying Dutchman]

IMTU, fuel has always been heavy water (deuterium isotopes of hydrogen and oxygen) with a replenishing tritium supply and the assumption there are lithium vanes in the power plant that get used up (worn away) and are one of the many components needed to be replaced during annual maintenance. Unrefined fuel is distilled water that is either treated with a fuel processor before use or is treated as it is used (as in scout and military spacecraft). Fuel scooping from gas giants is permitted, but places a strain on the ship's life support systems since there is no free oxygen coming from the fuel - and they are required to crack O2 from the built up carbon dioxide on board (reducing the amount of loiter time in space).

 

[kilemall]

I know the game Imperium had tankers for refueling through Sirius, which presumably are stellar gas capture ships, and everywhere else without enemy craft you could move through- but enemy ships stop your movement.

I am assuming (and that's all it is) that the whole hydrogen refueling mechanism was a way to explain how nodal jumps around systems required stopping in that system and being able to safely refuel the fleet and unmodeled support/courier ships in order to jump on through and maintain a fleet train. To what extent the two games were cross-fertilizing each other, I couldn't say.

 

[mike wightman]

In Imperium and Dark Nebula the tankers make fuel from stellar atmoshperes...

Refuleing: All ships use hydrogen as fuel. This
hydrogen fuel supply may be supplied from the oceans
of a habitable planet or from the atmosphere of a gas
giant...
...Tankers are capable of manufacturing fuel directly
from stellar atmospheres.

 

[kilemall]

In Imperium and Dark Nebula the tankers make fuel from stellar atmoshperes...

Ya, but that could be GDW edition retcon unless it's the first Conflict Game ruleset.

 

[mike wightman]

It's in both.

 

[Reynard]

"Then, in the 1981 edition, there are rules for skimming water to get hydrogen... and suddenly the ships are fueled by hydrogen.

Now, whatever I Referee will be mine to referee as I wish, of course. But I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how hydrogen became the source of of powering Jump Drives.

Not retroactively through a series of hand-waved science justifications. But, since this is all fake, what the thinking was to make the access to unrefined fuel much easier than it was in the original rules."

It seems the Traveller games has an amazing history of adapting and evolving. The original concepts were simple and easy. Not much deep thought. I'm sure someone realized hydrogen is a cheap, compact, plentiful and efficient fuel especially if you involve gas giants. Only take a little bit of Science to know water is also a source of hydrogen. I'm sure someone read about hypothetical fusion reactors and the use of hydrogen there and put 2 and 2 together. Hydrogen becomes the hard science miracle fuel for Traveller.

I don't have my (really) old 1st Ed with me but I remember only scout and warships could afford fuel purifiers. Most adventure ships had to pay for refined fuel or take a chance with unrefined fuel. Obviously players and referees have balked and built lot of ships with purifiers or demanded changes to official ships. Soon wilderness refueling was common and starports lost a lot of revenue.

 

[welsh]

Two thoughts: I always assumed the fuel skimmed from GGs was hydrogen and that starship power plants were fusion reactors. Given hydrogen is supposed to be the chief component of the GG atmosphere I don't think that's retroactive hand-waving; I think that was the idea all along. It's a short step from that idea to ocean refuelling.

I do really like the idea of heavy water as refined fuel and distilled as unrefined. I never thought collapsible tanks made sense if the fuel was liquid hydrogen.

Second: I think the idea that wilderness refueling is common is fishy. In reality, it could be a long trip out to that GG. Traveller simplifies things with "typical distance to near GG," but everything is happily orbiting at its own rate & the GG could at any given time be on the far side of the star. If I'm a commercial operator, travel time is money & GG skimming starts to look like a false economy.

 

[creativehum]

It seems the Traveller games has an amazing history of adapting and evolving. The original concepts were simple and easy. Not much deep thought. I'm sure someone realized hydrogen is a cheap, compact, plentiful and efficient fuel especially if you involve gas giants. Only take a little bit of Science to know water is also a source of hydrogen. I'm sure someone read about hypothetical fusion reactors and the use of hydrogen there and put 2 and 2 together. Hydrogen becomes the hard science miracle fuel for Traveller.

I don't have my (really) old 1st Ed with me but I remember only scout and warships could afford fuel purifiers. Most adventure ships had to pay for refined fuel or take a chance with unrefined fuel. Obviously players and referees have balked and built lot of ships with purifiers or demanded changes to official ships. Soon wilderness refueling was common and starports lost a lot of revenue.

You have described the general arc of interstellar travel in Traveller I have observed as well: With each passing year of Classic Traveller's product line, travel became easier and easier.

I find the potential influence of the board games mentioned upthread intriguing. GDW obviously did a lot of cross-polination between their board games and Traveller. But I can't help but wonder if, ultimately, the introduction of hydrogen as "the hard science miracle fuel for Traveller" is just one more block in the bridge from space travel being relatively rare and dangerous in LBBs 1-3 to space travel being "as common as air travel is today" found in The Traveller Book through the GURPS: Traveller materials.

A note: Purifiers aren't introduced as a specific concept until Book 5.

In Book 2 (1977) we find this:

For all jumps (in any situations) throw 12+ for a misjump to occur. DM: +5 if within 100 planetary diameters of a world or star; +3 if using unrefined fuel (except military and scout ships); –1 if using refined fuel; +2 if operating beyond the required date for annual maintenance.

So, military and scout ships dodge a DM for misjumps if using unrefined fuel, but with no explanation.

And in Book 2 (1981) we find this:

Military and quasi-military starships often use unrefined fuel because it is more available, and because their drives are specially built to use it.

My own reading of this passage years ago was that the drives of such ships could handle unrefined fuel, but over time it would wear on the drives. Annual maintenance would require deep cleaning or even overhaul to clean out the ships. It never occurred to me one could tote around a purifier. Because, of course, (as you pointed out) why would unrefined fuel be a thing?

I prefer the danger and risk of space travel found in the original rules. So, for me, no purifiers, no hydrogen as the magic sauce, and even military and scout vehicles can run into danger of misjump DMs if they are out in the field for too long. I think it keeps the whole "Age of Sail" feel I found so appealing when I first read the rules: Sailors in remote corners of space, alone, and risking danger as they traveled space lanes others would not dare.

 

[Blue Ghost]

*snip*

I don't have my (really) old 1st Ed with me but I remember only scout and warships could afford fuel purifiers. Most adventure ships had to pay for refined fuel or take a chance with unrefined fuel. Obviously players and referees have balked and built lot of ships with purifiers or demanded changes to official ships. Soon wilderness refueling was common and starports lost a lot of revenue.

Isn't that in TTB or one of the adventures?

 

[Reynard]

"Second: I think the idea that wilderness refueling is common is fishy. In reality, it could be a long trip out to that GG. Traveller simplifies things with "typical distance to near GG," but everything is happily orbiting at its own rate & the GG could at any given time be on the far side of the star. If I'm a commercial operator, travel time is money & GG skimming starts to look like a false economy."

It's the simplicity that makes Traveller playable for all but the golden rule is referees have the right and duty to change things for the fun of the game. A ref can just have the necessary GG in normal reach to move the game along and not create more work or they can place that giant where it adds to an event for better or worst for the players. Putting the giant on the other side of the sun when the player ship arrives lets the ref herd the players to a starport or planet as the story plot needs.

Remember that the ship's computer contains know star system data including the location of every known and important body. A referee could state before they jump that gas giants won't be in position to be safe or profitable upon reentry. The players must decide if they wish to exit at the giant and trek way back to their true destination or save time (and maybe money) fueling at the homeworld. Also, Travellers often jump directly to a giant to refuel before continuing to another system never heading to a habituated world.

 

[creativehum]

"Second: I think the idea that wilderness refueling is common is fishy. In reality, it could be a long trip out to that GG. Traveller simplifies things with "typical distance to near GG," but everything is happily orbiting at its own rate & the GG could at any given time be on the far side of the star. If I'm a commercial operator, travel time is money & GG skimming starts to look like a false economy."

It's the simplicity that makes Traveller playable for all but the golden rule is referees have the right and duty to change things for the fun of the game. A ref can just have the necessary GG in normal reach to move the game along and not create more work or they can place that giant where it adds to an event for better or worst for the players. Putting the giant on the other side of the sun when the player ship arrives lets the ref herd the players to a starport or planet as the story plot needs.

Remember that the ship's computer contains know star system data including the location of every known and important body. A referee could state before they jump that gas giants won't be in position to be safe or profitable upon reentry. The players must decide if they wish to exit at the giant and trek way back to their true destination or save time (and maybe money) fueling at the homeworld. Also, Travellers often jump directly to a giant to refuel before continuing to another system never heading to a habituated world.

I just wanted to say that I loved this post.

And, as a thought:

I've noticed in lots of Traveller discussions about technology, economics, law and more, "inefficiency" is often brought up as some sort of deal-breaker for how things might work.

All I can say is that I'd love to live in whatever reality you guys live in.

Additionally, from character creation onward, Classic Traveller has always been about deciding between suboptimal choices. I absolutely think that should be carried forward in matters of how the hell to get around in space and still make a buck. Just like life on earth today, as far as I can tell.

 

[Condottiere]

I think most of us figured out long ago that a fuel purifier and hundred bucks a tonne at ye local starport was the most economical use of our money and time.

 

[creativehum]

I think most of us figured out long ago that a fuel purifier and hundred bucks a tonne at ye local starport was the most economical use of our money and time.

Well, sure. Once purifiers are introduced in Highguard the distinctions between refined and unrefined become preposterous.

Since I like those distinctions, I ignore Highguard.

 

[welsh]

It's the simplicity that makes Traveller playable for all but the golden rule is referees have the right and duty to change things for the fun of the game.

Agreed. Simplicity is the strength of the system.

I'm not just talking in terms of what PCs do ... what PCs do will often deviate from what "normal" merchant captains would do, IMO.

PCs love to accumulate money and equipment and I delight in taking it away.

I think most of us figured out long ago that a fuel purifier and hundred bucks a tonne at ye local starport was the most economical use of our money and time.

This is one of those little mysteries. It would be way more economical to stick a purification plant on every merchant ship, in the long run. So why don't they all have them? One of those areas where I don't think the ship design rules work very well.

 

[creativehum]

This is one of those little mysteries. It would be way more economical to stick a purification plant on every merchant ship, in the long run. So why don't they all have them? One of those areas where I don't think the ship design rules work very well.

I think it's one of those areas where Book 2 and Book 5 are at war with each other. But that is the nature of the Classic Traveller years: new books and material contradict and torpedo what had come before on a regular basis.

As for the mystery of it, my own guess is that as GDW began to envision their house setting -- one full of large scale political conflicts with lots of fleets across a big map (as was GDW's M.O.) -- they realize they needed to make the technology much more friendly to those who wanted to ply the space lanes.

What had been based on the sensibility of star travel found in the Dumarest books (LBBs 1-3) was retconned, piece by piece over several years (everything else), to something more friendly to the feel of The Mote in God's Eye. And the pieces from one don't really make sense with the pieces of the other.