Hydroponics Bay and Still size/cost?

[Ifandbut]

As far as I can tell, there are no rules in Traveller or the supplements that covers hydroponics. The only mention of hydroponics is as a specialization of the Trade skill.

The TL;DR reason I am asking about this is one of my players wants to grow potatoes and make vodka in the long trips between systems.

We spent a few hours after our last session doing some research and math. We came to a ratio of 3 tons of potatoes can be distilled into 1 ton of vodka. It takes 2-4 weeks for 1 ton of potatoes to grow into 9 tons.

Based on these numbers, I'm thinking a small hydroponics bay should take up 12 tons of ship space (9 tons of growth + 1 ton of seeds + 2 tons of overhead (water, fertilizer, etc)). I just dont know how much that would cost to install.

The distillery I would say takes 5 tons (1 ton vodka + 3 tons potatoes + 1 ton overhead). It would convert that over the course of a week. But again, no clue on how to even estimate how much it would cost them to get it installed.

 

[Timerover51]

As far as I can tell, there are no rules in Traveller or the supplements that covers hydroponics. The only mention of hydroponics is as a specialization of the Trade skill.

The TL;DR reason I am asking about this is one of my players wants to grow potatoes and make vodka in the long trips between systems.

We spent a few hours after our last session doing some research and math. We came to a ratio of 3 tons of potatoes can be distilled into 1 ton of vodka. It takes 2-4 weeks for 1 ton of potatoes to grow into 9 tons.

Based on these numbers, I'm thinking a small hydroponics bay should take up 12 tons of ship space (9 tons of growth + 1 ton of seeds + 2 tons of overhead (water, fertilizer, etc)). I just dont know how much that would cost to install.

The distillery I would say takes 5 tons (1 ton vodka + 3 tons potatoes + 1 ton overhead). It would convert that over the course of a week. But again, no clue on how to even estimate how much it would cost them to get it installed.

That one ton of potatoes growing into nine tons sounds like a yield per acre to me under field conditions on Earth, and not that of a small hydroponics bay. The following site gives a yield of about 900 pounds of potatoes per acre per day under certain conditions once you have the plants fully established with a steady rotation of plants.

http://www.nss.org/settlement/ColoniesInSpace/colonies_chap09.html

Your player and you might want to take a look at that.

As for the cost of the still, I would suggest you search micro-distillation or self-production of fuel alcohol. I know that there are cost estimates for setting up small-scale bio-Diesel fuel production, and if I remember correctly, some of the sites also had information on setting up a fuel alcohol still.

 

[Ifandbut]

That one ton of potatoes growing into nine tons sounds like a yield per acre to me under field conditions on Earth, and not that of a small hydroponics bay. The following site gives a yield of about 900 pounds of potatoes per acre per day under certain conditions once you have the plants fully established with a steady rotation of plants.

I'm assuming that TL9+ hydroponics can grow at least as well as an Earth farm. Also, because it is in space I dont think it would be constrained to a 2D plot of land. If you think I should add another ton or 2 of overhead for extra volume then I can see that.

As for the cost of the still, I would suggest you search micro-distillation or self-production of fuel alcohol. I know that there are cost estimates for setting up small-scale bio-Diesel fuel production, and if I remember correctly, some of the sites also had information on setting up a fuel alcohol still.

I'll do a search for those rules. I was considering using the fuel processors as a base for the still price if all else failed.

 

[Timerover51]

I got some more information on potato growing from a 1934 agricultural handbook, giving the yield of a 100 foot row of potatoes as 3 bushels, which would be 180 pounds. If you put in say five 20-foot long rows, which would be 4 decks squares, and allowed for a width of 10 feet, or 2 deck squares, that would get your 100 feet in. Allowing for 24 hour lighting, and maybe some CO2 enrichment, you could plausibly argue that your yield is a bushel of 60 pounds every week from your 20 foot row of plants, and by staggering your planting, you should be able to have a steady harvest of 60 pounds of potatoes every week. You should get about 3 to 4 gallons of 200 proof vodka per bushel, so you would not need that big a still. Cut that to 100 proof, and you have 6 to 8 gallons. I would expect, and indeed have in a story that I am working on, that alcoholic beverages would have a ready market on just about every planet, and if you cannot for some reason sell on a given planet, you just carry the product over to the next one.

A lot depends on how much deck space you want to devote to this project.

 

[Timerover51]

You can also pick up some information from here, the 1978 US Dept. of Agriculture Yearbook.

https://archive.org/details/yoa1978

You are also mixing dTons, which are volume, and mass tons in your calculations. Irish Potatoes in bulk weigh 35 pounds per cubic foot, so a metric ton of potatoes will take up 63 cubic feet of storage space, so a Traveller dTon in volume will hold just about 8 metric tons of potatoes. A ton of alcohol is going to take up about 1.26 cubic meters of space, so if you allow 1 Traveller dTon of volume for your potato and alcohol storage you should be good.

Since you want to devote about 12 dTons of volume to this, you should be able to get a continuous yield of 150 pounds, at least, of potatoes per week, which would be 2.5 bushels, with an alcohol yield of 3 to 4 gallons of pure alcohol per bushel. Note, you are going to have to make a mash of the potatoes, so I would figure 1 Traveller dTon of volume for processing the potatoes, 1 Traveller dTon for storage of potatoes awaiting processing and alcohol yield, and probably a dTon for your still. You will need your power plant to provide heat for the still, but that is simple electrical work, and some form of coolant for your condenser as you distill the alcohol out of the mash.

Overall, I would budget about 14 dTons of volume for this as a minimum, with one or two more in reserve. Remember too, you will have the potato plant waste and what is left of your mash to dispose of as waste.

As for the still, you might want to look up the cost of setting up a micro-brewery as well as a still, as they are somewhat comparable.

 

[aramis]

whiskey density runs about 0.96 kg/L = 1.064 L/kg = 1.064 T/kL
this is due to the impurities which give it flavor, including dissolved sugars and tannins.

Handy booze specific density table: http://www.drinknation.com/bartending/alcohol-density-chart

 

[Ifandbut]

You are also mixing dTons, which are volume, and mass tons in your calculations.

I forgot that the "tons of ship space" was really a volume measurement...yay for using mass to describe volume. But this brings up another question. Looking at both Core and Merchant Prince all the cargos are listed in "tons"...is this dTons or 1,000kg tons? I was assuming the trade charts were in 1,000kg tons up until now.

whiskey density runs about 0.96 kg/L = 1.064 L/kg = 1.064 T/kL
this is due to the impurities which give it flavor, including dissolved sugars and tannins.

I really dont need to get that detailed. 0.96 kg/L is close enough to 1:1 for me.

If you put in say five 20-foot long rows, which would be 4 decks squares, and allowed for a width of 10 feet, or 2 deck squares, that would get your 100 feet in. Allowing for 24 hour lighting, and maybe some CO2 enrichment, you could plausibly argue that your yield is a bushel of 60 pounds every week from your 20 foot row of plants

I'm not familiar with the "deck squares" unit of measurement. I have never drawn the layout of the ship, I just use a system detail like sheet that shows systems and the amount of tons they take up (like is shown for the sample ships in the core). So how many dTons would 6 deck squares be?

steady harvest of 60 pounds of potatoes every week. You should get about 3 to 4 gallons of 200 proof vodka per bushel, so you would not need that big a still. Cut that to 100 proof, and you have 6 to 8 gallons.

So that would be at most 30 Liters (simple math of 30kg or 0.03 tons) of vodka. We would have to scale that up by a factor of about 33 to get one sellable unit of vodka per week.

Overall, I would budget about 14 dTons of volume for this as a minimum, with one or two more in reserve. Remember too, you will have the potato plant waste and what is left of your mash to dispose of as waste.

As for the still, you might want to look up the cost of setting up a micro-brewery as well as a still, as they are somewhat comparable.

Ok, so 14 dTons will get at most 75 Liters of 100 proof vodka which is still way under the sellable amount of 1 ton by my understanding.


Wow, this is getting a bit crazy. It all seemed so simple the other night when we were talking about it.

 

[steventirey1985]

Looking at both Core and Merchant Prince all the cargos are listed in "tons"...is this dTons or 1,000kg tons? I was assuming the trade charts were in 1,000kg tons up until now.

Displacement tons.

I'm not familiar with the "deck squares" unit of measurement. I have never drawn the layout of the ship, I just use a system detail like sheet that shows systems and the amount of tons they take up (like is shown for the sample ships in the core). So how many dTons would 6 deck squares be?

A deck squares is usually 1.5meters (5 feet) on a side. Assuming standard deck height (3 meters, including floor and ceiling), 2 squares is equal to 1 displacement ton. 6 deck squares would therefore be 3 tons.

So that would be at most 30 Liters (simple math of 30kg or 0.03 tons) of vodka. We would have to scale that up by a factor of about 33 to get one sellable unit of vodka per week.

Ok, so 14 dTons will get at most 75 Liters of 100 proof vodka which is still way under the sellable amount of 1 ton by my understanding.

Unless I missed something, nothing says you have to sell in 1-ton increments. You can buy and sell as much of a speculative good as you want.

 

[Timerover51]

So that would be at most 30 Liters (simple math of 30kg or 0.03 tons) of vodka. We would have to scale that up by a factor of about 33 to get one sellable unit of vodka per week.

Ok, so 14 dTons will get at most 75 Liters of 100 proof vodka which is still way under the sellable amount of 1 ton by my understanding.

Wow, this is getting a bit crazy. It all seemed so simple the other night when we were talking about it.

I am not sure why you need to sell in 1 mass ton lots. In a novel I am working on, off-world alcoholic drinks sell for 10 Credits per liter on Vilis, and that is to wholesalers. Direct to a restaurant or bar, it is 25 Credits per liter. In my mind, something like 750 Credits per week is not something to be ignored.

 

[pendragonman]

I am not sure why you need to sell in 1 mass ton lots. In a novel I am working on, off-world alcoholic drinks sell for 10 Credits per liter on Vilis, and that is to wholesalers. Direct to a restaurant or bar, it is 25 Credits per liter. In my mind, something like 750 Credits per week is not something to be ignored.

Distill it to a higher standard, and sell it as alcohol fuel.

 

[steventirey1985]

I am not sure why you need to sell in 1 mass ton lots. In a novel I am working on, off-world alcoholic drinks sell for 10 Credits per liter on Vilis, and that is to wholesalers. Direct to a restaurant or bar, it is 25 Credits per liter. In my mind, something like 750 Credits per week is not something to be ignored.

But at 14 tons of space, you could make a lot more if you actually used to space for cargo. 14tons of freight would bring in 14,000 credits minimum. 5 tons of mail brings in 25,000 credits. Fitting 3 staterooms in that space instead can bring in thousands a week (minus life support costs and depending on what kind of passenger you book).

If the character wants to make alcohol, fine. But there are far better things to do with that space. Just put in a still with no hydroponics and buy the raw materials needed with the profits from the extra cargo/freight/mail/passengers you can carry from not putting in hydroponics.

 

[Timerover51]

Distill it to a higher standard, and sell it as alcohol fuel.

I was figuring that the initial run of the still produces 200 proof or 100 per cent alcohol, but he would make more selling it as a beverage than selling it as fuel.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I am not sure why you need to sell in 1 mass ton lots. In a novel I am working on, off-world alcoholic drinks sell for 10 Credits per liter on Vilis, and that is to wholesalers. Direct to a restaurant or bar, it is 25 Credits per liter. In my mind, something like 750 Credits per week is not something to be ignored.

Don't forget the marketing!

Selling it as "Space Vodka" to worlds that do not see much trade traffic will allow you to increase the price.

 

[rancke]

In a novel I am working on, off-world alcoholic drinks sell for 10 Credits per liter on Vilis, and that is to wholesalers. Direct to a restaurant or bar, it is 25 Credits per liter.

This appears to be pretty firmly inside the ballpark. I googled an Australian whisky shop and checked the prices for American bourbon. Assuming 4$ = 1 credit, prices range from Cr11 and up. Many range from 20-25 credits. The most expensive is Cr44. Assuming the bottles are fifths, you should multiply the numbers by 1.33 to get the liter prices.

The most expensive whisky in the world¹ costs Cr350,000 per bottle.

¹ Ignoring the gimmicky Isabella’s Islay (MCr1.55) which is sold in an English Crystal decanter adorned with 8500 diamonds, a handsome amount of white gold, and some 300 rubies encrusted all over the bottle.​

Hans

 

[Condottiere]

Since most governments seem to view alcohol as primary source of revenue, one suspects hefty import taxes.

Could sell it to the Penguin Downside Starport Club.

 

[salochin999]

3D crops and Tomato Vodka

http://img.tjskl.org.cn/nimg/96/85/...d_grow_lights_for_indoor_plants_and_crops.jpg

http://www.cropvodka.com/home.php

 

[Ifandbut]

3D crops and Tomato Vodka

http://img.tjskl.org.cn/nimg/96/85/...d_grow_lights_for_indoor_plants_and_crops.jpg

That is exactly how I was imagining a hydroponics bay. This is f-ing space, you have all 3 dimensions to work with.

I'm going to go back over the numbers we originally found while keeping in mind that a dTon != 1,000kg and just throw something simple together.

 

[middenface]

The Outer Veil setting from Spica Publishing does have Hydroponics - though simply done, offsets life support costs.

 

[salochin999]

That is exactly how I was imagining a hydroponics bay. This is f-ing space, you have all 3 dimensions to work with.

I'm going to go back over the numbers we originally found while keeping in mind that a dTon != 1,000kg and just throw something simple together.

Yeah it's interesting to think about. I'm picturing self-sufficient Darrian garden ships now.

 

[PsiTraveller]

You could look into algae and tube reactors and use organiz waste (plus your own waste system). Convert the waste into algae and process algae into alcohol, process the water afterwords with a supercritical water oxidizer and wash rinse repeat. Takes less space than plants and hydroponic bays.

genetically engineered algae might give more sugars per litre of water to increase production.

There are closed loop systems involved in algae for food production, a bit of genetic tinkering and you are drinking instead of eating.
http://interzone.com/~cheung/Page.dir/pg.mars3.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercritical_water_oxidation