General I would like your thoughts on this adventure idea...

[Enoki]

Not necessarily. Any good research institute will have workshops able to manufacture "widgets", especially high TL ones which have advanced fabricators.

For example, when I worked at University College London, I knew the technicians (and some researchers) in the Department of Physics & Astronomy and the Mullard Space Science Laboratory. They were building experimental satellites and manufacturing the custom parts to go in them. They were perfectly capable, if needed urgently, of turning out M3 screws if someone had forgotten to reorder them.

This is how I'd see it. Just because the system / planetary tech level average is A doesn't necessarily mean all technology on that planet or in that system is A or below. There can be pockets of higher tech, along with possibly some specific higher technologies that are beneficial to the planet or system.

Therefore, it's possible that this particular research center has higher tech available, like a fabrication system, or other equipment on hand that is up to F or whatever because they need it to do what they do.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Therefore, it's possible that this particular research center has higher tech available

+1 ... +2 ... that's certainly plausible.
+5 ... ?

There's a reason why I keep returning to the notion of building a fusion reactor using sticks and stones ... to make the obvious technological gap obvious.

 

[Enoki]

+1 ... +2 ... that's certainly plausible.
+5 ... ?

There's a reason why I keep returning to the notion of building a fusion reactor using sticks and stones ... to make the obvious technological gap obvious.

The technology is available elsewhere. It could be specifically imported for some reason by a megacorp. Think mining town in the Middle-of-Nowhere. The local tech outside the mining town is much lower while the miners and corporate personnel are given much higher tech as an incentive to want to work there. For example, maybe the local tech level is say, 4 or 5. They have spotty electricity, no A/C, etc. They're something like you see in a western movie. The mining company comes in and installs reliable electric, A/C and other stuff up to say TL 9 or 10. They have computers on all the administration and management desks. Their mining gear is likewise up to snuff commercially to be competitive in cost to do the mining.
They offer to hire some locals, but the tech is mostly stuff you can't pilfer or can't keep running outside the mining town. But the higher tech is there for a reason, and without that reason wouldn't be present.

 

[TamsinP]

+1 ... +2 ... that's certainly plausible.
+5 ... ?

There's a reason why I keep returning to the notion of building a fusion reactor using sticks and stones ... to make the obvious technological gap obvious.

Given that Imperial Navy bases need to be able to maintain/repair TL15 ships, taking just IN bases in the Spinward Marches, we have Motmos (TL5), Murchison (TL6), Icetina and Wonstar (TL7), several at TL8, more at TL9, TL10, etc.

Are you saying that only those in TL15 systems are able to do that maintenance/repair? If not, your argument about a megacorporation not being able to place a research base doing TL15+ work on a lower TL world is void.

 

[Enoki]

Given that Imperial Navy bases need to be able to maintain/repair TL15 ships, taking just IN bases in the Spinward Marches, we have Motmos (TL5), Murchison (TL6), Icetina and Wonstar (TL7), several at TL8, more at TL9, TL10, etc.

Are you saying that only those in TL15 systems are able to do that maintenance/repair? If not, your argument about a megacorporation not being able to place a research base doing TL15+ work on a lower TL world is void.

It'd be like military bases are on Earth today. They have their own amenities for the assigned personnel. They'd have some T15 or close to it, entertainment on base (like bases used to have their own theater for movies), the same for fitness equipment, maybe some dining options, etc. Housing would be the same way. The base maintenance and repair facilities would definitely be TL 15 if that's what they have to maintain.

Outside the base, the TL could be whatever it is locally. Of course, some higher tech would 'leak' off base, sold as junk / scrap like say some worn out machine or another, some black market, etc. And the local political and business leaders as well as anyone who's "rich," like the local nobility, would also likely use their positions and influence with the base command to get 'stuff' (a highly technical term) brought in on the regular transport shipments the military makes to upgrade their own personal lifestyles.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Are you saying that only those in TL15 systems are able to do that maintenance/repair? If not, your argument about a megacorporation not being able to place a research base doing TL15+ work on a lower TL world is void.

(Imperial) naval bases have supply chains that extend back to TL=15 worlds for the sourcing of parts, spares and tooling that cannot be sourced locally. However, all the "stuffs" that naval bases have on site and that they stockpile are hardly "general purpose" use cases or "freely available to the public" on those worlds (for what ought to be obvious reasons). At the same time, I'm not assuming that "supplies are infinite" at every naval base, but rather they are "adequate for needs" of the naval service and personnel who get staged and do their tours of duty there.

In other words, a naval base is not the equivalent of a world economy.
A naval base can have amenities and provide support, but there's also going to be a logistics tail that goes back to a supplier at an actual TL=F world somewhere for each naval base.

Naval bases are more like "outposts" than they are "world economies in miniature" (or words to that effect).
Naval bases can handle "routine" stuff reasonably well, but anything specialty or "rare" you'll almost certainly need to requisition from off world/out of the system and have it delivered.

taking just IN bases in the Spinward Marches, we have Motmos (TL5)

If a Tigress battleship needs a critical major component to repair a damaged/non-functional Meson-T spinal mount ... I would consider that to be "specialized enough" so as to require a requisition be dispatched from Motmos/District 268 to Glisten/Glisten to fill that order, for example.

Conversely, if a group of Imperial Marines needs to do maintenance on their battledress power armor, the naval base can probably supply whatever is needed for that task without needing so send a requisition order outside the base to fill that particular need.

Naval bases are where parts, spares and supplies can be stockpiled ... along with crews and personnel. But naval bases are not "selfishly sufficient islands" unto themselves, where they are TL=15 "outposts" that can "do anything" on demand. They are not "cheat codes" for world economies and industrial bases. They're forward operating bases, not depots.

There ARE actual naval depot star systems for truly MAJOR naval base work and staging, where the naval base for all intents and purposes IS the world economy(!) ... but there aren't too many of those (and the nearest one to the Spinward Marches is in the Deneb sector, iirc).

If not, your argument about a megacorporation not being able to place a research base doing TL15+ work on a lower TL world is void.

The problem is that BLEEDING EDGE PROTOTYPE RESEARCH into +2 TL stuff isn't exactly a case of "here's everything you need, get started people" such that all the stuff you're going to "need" is known in advance.

For example ... take a look at current world computer research into autonomous driving.
TESLA decided to go the "pure vision" route and kept running into "local maximums" during research and development. They had to keep "rebuilding" both the hardware AND the software stack over and over and over again while engineering their way to a solution. Where they've ended up (neural net trained on video, no hard coding) in the software stack is NOT where they started (almost all hard code, manual labeling, etc.). Over the course of the project, the "demand need" for compute power has ballooned wildly. TESLA has had to design their own computer chips and data centers to be able to handle the torrential FLOOD of data and compute needed to "solve the problem" of autonomous driving.

My point of using this anecdote about TESLA developing Artificial General Intelligence based on pure VISION rather than on lidar/sonar and other sensor inputs is a demonstration that what you think you need when you start will almost certainly NOT be what you need to complete your research project when you're dealing with prototyping a new technological advance that has not existed before in the form that you're trying to bring to fruition. How many times did Elon say words to the effect of "we've almost solved full self driving" to only discover that the team had run into a paradigm maximum and they needed to refactor and change their approach? I don't know the exact number of times that the engineers at TESLA had to "take what they had learned, go back to square one and start over with a new approach" that would get them closer to their goal. Every time they had to change the software stack, there would wind up being changes in what the hardware stack both could do and needed to be in order to keep advancing the research.

Research projects into +2 TL prototype stuff is not like RPG crafting.
You don't just "gather the mats" ... do the Thing™ ... and the result happens every single time, without fail.

Instead ... research projects into +2 TL prototype stuff is more like KRPG crafting.
You have to KEEP GRINDING and consuming mats until you roll that ~1% success chance ... with no idea when (or even IF) it will happen before your patience (or in this case, your research funding) runs out. It's perfectly possible to consume ALL of the resources you throw at the research project budget and still not succeed ... meaning you need to increase your budget and keep trying. You need MORE supplies, MORE expertise ... more, more, MORE!

All of that "more" has to come from somewhere.
That "more" is going to be your supply chain.
And that supply chain is going to stretch back to (in this case) the nearest highest tech world economy that can be accessed, within the bounds of the research budget (which even for a megacorporation, will NOT BE INFINITE).

Questions?

 

[TamsinP]

OK, I give up. You are clearly right and everybody else is clearly wrong (and stupid, to boot).

Edit to clarify: the above is in response to Spinward Scout's post immediately above.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Regarding Ghandi's location as a "secret" research station: Its pretty darned good!
While @Spinward Scout 's arguments regarding nearby supplies are valid, its location lends other benefits: Isolation.
EDIT: I MEANT @Spinward Flow , @Spinward Flow , @Spinward Flow , @Spinward Flow !!!!

• Ghandi is isolated far enough away from regular traffic. Though Ghandi has a Class B starport, the Mainworld only has 30,000 people which means the other 8 planets in system (if inhabited) have less than 3,000 each (depending on which RAW). 54,000 is a pretty small population system. Also if the 3 gas giants have moons, even better for places for a lab. All one really has to do is hide your power emissions. Ghandi's TL 5 and low pop will help there...
• The two nearest systems are Red Zoned (Ylaven and Victoria). Red Zones are established by the Imperial Navy (or at the request of the Scout Service) and maintained by an active Naval element to enforce it. Worse for ordinary travellers and traders, Victoria has a Naval base and an Ancient Site! The quarantine will be enforced. So "legitimate" J-3 traffic would have to come from Calit or Sonthert. Both have high enough population and TL to warrant trade to them, but none to Ghandi. But Megas can lie about destinations, and they can better afford dedicated otherwise "unprofitable" J4/J5/J6 ships

Also the nearby Ancient Site ... did some basic data or artifact for the project come from Victoria? Is the Mega in cahoots with the Navy? Inquiring conspiracy theorists want to know !

 

[kilemall]

OK, I give up. You are clearly right and everybody else is clearly wrong (and stupid, to boot).

The OP should note to what degree his players care about the realism, and proceed how he wants.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Edit to clarify: the above is in response to Spinward Scout's post immediately above.

It wasn't meeeee!

 

[TamsinP]

It wasn't meeeee!

Flow! I meant Flow!

Damn - I'm past the time when I can edit the post! My sincere apologies!

 

[Spinward Flow]

Flow! I meant Flow!

I knew you meant me.

 

[TamsinP]

I knew you meant me.

At least you only used lots of all-caps and bold (separately) to beat me into submission but not bold and all-caps and repeating in increasingly large font sizes.

I'm not sure that I'd have been in any fit state to submit if you'd gone that far.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I knew you meant me.

I intended you @Spinward Flow . I give credit and blame when due

 

[Commander Truestar]

I would say that some of my previous posts are about pre-release. For example, the AI is hoarding resources and duplicating itself in anticipation that there will be countermeasures to its presence when discovered. That is, it is 'thinking' ahead, planning the counter to the next move by what it perceives as its opposition.

Understood, but the pre-release issue is outside the rails.
As far as the adventure is concerned, everything happens "before" any possible release...
....after the release, everything goes to crap and it turns into a "flee for your lives" situation

So, what the AI is doing to prepare for its escape is meaningless....the station computer is no match and the only chance "anyone" has of containment is the fact the AI does not understand the new environment.

As for the PC's...they just want to run for their ship and break dock before the AI figures out a departing ship is a safe refuge

 

[Commander Truestar]

I'm still having trouble getting past the "sentient AI is a TL=17 advancement" combined with the fact that Ghandi (as a location) is TL=10 and the Imperial Maximum is TL=15 (with the closest location for that being Rhylanor).

You are missing the point that tech can be brought into "anywhere"
A MegaCorp who wants to spend the money can create a TL F base in a remote desert on an otherwise TL 0 world.
So, when looking for places to hide covert and possibly illegal work....you look for places no one will look at.
For this, Ghandi is perfect because no one wants to live there, while there is massive traffic "through" the system
So, it is a perfect place to look for "downbelow"-like space [Babylon 5 reference] and hide it behind doors no one will look at twice.

So get off the "perfect place for this to happen" and look for the perfect covert location to set something up

The implausibility of a sentient AI being generated by this research project is ... laughable.

And then there's this factor ...

In other words, sentient consciousness (presumably) cannot arise (spontaneously or by design) within classical computing systems (analog or digital). You need to have some "quantum computing" element built into the system or sentience cannot emerge ... or more to the point for this adventure idea ... SURVIVE.

One of the reasons Dr. Sagan hired me, back in the 1980's was that I was not so smart I could easily ignore what Dr. Hawking missed.
So, while Dr. Hawking hated me for the rest of his life (for that event and other reasons), Dr. Sagan was well pleased with my work and my perceptions.

What you "know to be laughable" is based on the .001% we really know about the subject.
Just like Dr Einstein expecting to create a unified Field Theory when we...as a world...still know so little about the universe. even now, decades after Einstein, with all we've learned since. We are still mere babies with minimal understanding of the universe and an insanely huge ego to support our arrogance.

Take this mildly famous example of the problem into consideration.

Data: "While I believe it is possible download information contained in a positronic brain, I do not believe you have acquired the expertise necessary to preserve the ESSENCE of those experiences. There is an ineffable quality to memory, which I do not believe can survive your procedure."

So, you'd have me accept theory injected into dialog in what has become a derivative science fiction franchise which, forgive me - calls for female actors with "specific curves" to save it's ratings?

When Mr. Goodyear got so frustrated after continued failures with hardening rubber that he threw a sample into the fire, he was not an expert on the chemical properties of the substance. And, when he pulled the sample out and discovered it had hardened, he was still no greater an expert on what he would later call "vulcanization".
His discovery, like a great many before and since, was an accident.
Not based on his skills, material availability or anything other than the situation.

Because your TV tells you it is improbable does not mean it is impossible.
It just means you prefer to disbelieve, which is sad when we're working in a framework where "Jump" and other setting-required items are even more improbable.

@Commander Truestar ... I believe that you are proceeding from a false assumption (a confluence of them, actually, in my opinion).

You are assuming that:

1. A sentient AI program is hardware agnostic ... so "any" computer "will do" as an environment for the AI to occupy.

That is a sad and incorrect assumption.
YOU are assuming that as I have not provided any real details on the computer hardware.

2. A sentient AI program is "small enough" to be saved/backed up to easily portable media or hardware in order to "escape" the megacorp.
3. A sentient AI program does NOT need technology in excess of the Imperial maximum of TL=F. 4. That the fact the closest TL=F world is "a subsector away" from Ghandi at Rhylanor is "not a problem" for a megacorp.

Again, you are incorrect in your assumption.
You are assuming it is being treated like a simple software package where I am envisioning a "creature" with a "body" of energy.
Whereas all matter is energy, and no matter is more than a fog of atoms being held together with a force that provides density and mass, this "accidental creature" has a body of energy tied together by logic and code [and yes, this is partly based on data from a serious exobiological discussion outside of the gaming community ]
Such a creature will attempt to escape no matter how inefficient the electronic pathways, just like a human fleeing danger will risk crossing dangerous terrain.

5. Just because sentient AI "is not possible" even at TL=15, that doesn't mean it can't happen "accidentally" somehow.

Point 5 is akin to asserting that if I just pile up wooden sticks and silicate stones (TL=0) in the right order ... by random chance ... that I can build a working fusion power plant (TL=9).

Your attempt at a point here is laughable
You are oversimplifying the situation so you can make fun of it even though your proposed limits are only what you can imagine and what you might accept.
No, I am not putting an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters in a space and waiting for one to produce War and Peace.

I am relying on the historic fact that advances of staggering scale have been made by accident.
And that many of those same accidental advances have not been duplicatable

In a setting where we suspend disbelief enough to accept jump space, casual countra-grav and the many other muguffins required by the setting, this is no more. Set aside your arrogance and join the party

 

[Commander Truestar]

Now back to the original premise -

A secret project has became sentient and had wanted to learn

why the assumption it is a computer, AI, machine? What if it is a synthetic organism, or an uplift, or a completely artificial personality/memory overlay...

During this, it realized it wasn't free to learn

an artificial personality that is only aware when activated and so is limited to its learning opportunities, and the lack of sync means anything learned is forgotten until the next awakening - or worse the synced copy has full memories of everything, it is the original that is wanting out though.

an uplift of a distributed intelligence, a self aware mycelial network, it is always returned to its dormant state and forgets... or not - see above.

Or, to leave and be its own being.

Does it need a host? Does it need a storage device?

So, it begins seeking a way out. and it soon reaches an in-only news feed

this is where it has to start pretending to be something it is not, or does it...

Good points indeed
Though I didn't say it, I was working on the basis of a unique intelligence that, while tied off from the rest of the universe, is never dormant. So, it would not "forget" and have to relearn.

And, while the AI does not know or even understand it yet, it does require a "housing"

That said, and as I've said in other points in the discussion, that part of the AI is meaningless.
"If" it gets free, this part of the PC's situation turns into "flee to the ship and get clear" because things on the station will go very very badly.

So, what the AI needs or will do, or even how long it will survive, are meaningless.
It will struggle to survive in a new hostile environment until it dies....leaving behind systems which will have lost too much functionality to place the blame on the PC's unless they, themselves, spill the beans

 

[Commander Truestar]

Not necessarily. Any good research institute will have workshops able to manufacture "widgets", especially high TL ones which have advanced fabricators.

For example, when I worked at University College London, I knew the technicians (and some researchers) in the Department of Physics & Astronomy and the Mullard Space Science Laboratory. They were building experimental satellites and manufacturing the custom parts to go in them. They were perfectly capable, if needed urgently, of turning out M3 screws if someone had forgotten to reorder them.

I can add to that.
When I worked at Princeton University, they were at the height of tokamak experiments in that pretty skyscraper which now stands as a monument to misspent money. But, a side benefit did come from the engineering workshops which accidentally served as a sort of Vocational Tech shop for engineering students along with those students studying physics who wanted to better understand the tech they'd need to use in experiments. As I understand it, a curriculum was actually built around the remaining shop after plasma physics moved past their hardware capabilities.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Hmm. I didn't think I was talking it having escaping. I was more talking the hostile universe (from its perspective) said AI/entity was going to face. How its creators treat it will imprint into its knowledge base.

understood,
But that is still outside of the parameters for the adventure.
What the AI will or might do, or be able to do, is meaningless because the PC's should be running for their lives while the AI is attempting to survive and wrecking things in the process

 

[Commander Truestar]

Cool.
They could make (mechanical) screws if they needed them.

Did they also have a bleeding edge chip foundry on site to support "way too advanced +2 TL prototype computer research"?

Why not?
Did the Manhattan project have systems ready to hand out in the desert, or in the hills of Tennessee, when they established their sites?
No.
They had them made and shipped in.....to order.
Or, they built them on-site, with supplies shipped in.

I am sorry @Spinward Flow , but you are ignoring history itself.

Hell, Fermi built chicago pile-1 under the University of Chicago's Stagg Field.
Where were all their advanced tech workshops and supplies??