If you were a senior naval officer

[Hal]

Originally posted by Rupert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hal:
[QB
Another point to be brought up regards to HG issues versus GURPS TRAVELLER (abbrev as GT) issues:

GT - ships use a hex grid system.
HG - Does not

GT - has rules for sensors and detection.
HG - requires the rules from either Megatraveller or CT

points to consider: When talking about a ship being "protected" - are 6 ships surrounding it enough?

It depends greatly on both what is really meant by “protected”, and by the assumptions of the rules you’re using. In HG you can’t protect a vessel from incoming fire, but as long as it can fire or manoeuvre (IIRC) a single ship can protect any number of others by being in the line of battle while they stay in the reserve.

In TNE’s Battle Rider and Brilliant Lances rules a single ship can protect another from incoming missiles by staying in the same hex or nearby and shooting down the missiles (until the missiles saturate its defences). However if “protect” means holding the enemy well away you’ll probably need more than six ships unless you have plenty of sensor drones and independent missiles (which are rather expensive). [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Points well taken. GURPS TRAVELLER, like Mayday, requires that missiles move on the board. If the missiles end up passing THROUGH the hex of the defending escort two things have been accomplished.

1) the target ship now knows it is under attack.
2) if the escort ship has lasers to fire or sand to fire - it can target any of the missiles that are within range.

The rules for GURPS TRAVELLER missiles have changed dramatically since the first edition of GURPS TRAVELLER first edition. It now becomes harder for missiles to hit targets from further away.

Before I forget? Someone took the time to calculate the reload cost of a Tigress regards to her missile load. I was floored when I saw the price. A full missile load runs OVER 60 Billion Credits. That floors me when you try and consider what it must cost the Imperium to have a battle - and this without even the loss of a single ship!

 

[savage]

Rupert,
Good point. Sorry to mislead. I meant that the listening outposts can monitor activities outward over a long period of time. Its more cost effective to put a small base in a parsec than a major squadron. Minor squadrons can run around picking up the trash and checking out the neighboring empty parsec...it also means that the fleet captain or commodore requires a strategic understanding of operating 1 squadron in multiple parsecs. The communications logistics are complex.

Since, the costs of operating a single capital ship are beginning to become clear. I'm pointed
out that there are alternatives for border patrol.

Savage

 

[Hal]

Ok, bringing this back on topic, lets look at the criteria established for the creation of the escort ships, along with perhaps the Destroyers plus the Escort Carrier.

1) Jump 4 is required for all ships if they are to keep up with fleet elements

2) High manuver rating somewhere around 3 G's give or take

3) Weapon mix to favor beam weapons more than Missile weapons.

For the Carrier Escort, would people suggest a beam weapon armament for defensive purposes, or would they suggest a Missile bay system plus perhaps some beam weapons?

Armor:

CVE: light so as to permit faster speeds? Medium so as to have both faster reaction times plus decent armor or heavy to be relatively less fragile against light weight weaponry?

DD: same question as the CVE

DE: Fast reaction times to increase their value as scouting elements?

Question: Should all Destroyer Escort ships carry an extra Fighter or two to expand their options? Carrying a 50 ton cutter with a fighter module will permit any ship that carries a modular cutter system to carry multi-mission capable craft.

Comments?

 

[Antony]

Noting the reload costs for missiles, sand cannisters etc. In peacetime how many ships would carry a full load? I read somewhere (It might have been in a Tom Clancy novel) that the crew of a frigate knew a war was coming when for the first time since commissioning they received a full missile load.

 

[Granpafishy]

Originally posted by Antony:
Noting the reload costs for missiles, sand cannisters etc. In peacetime how many ships would carry a full load? I read somewhere (It might have been in a Tom Clancy novel) that the crew of a frigate knew a war was coming when for the first time since commissioning they received a full missile load.

I don't think that's a good indicator. As a VLS missle tech (GM2 missles), the only time our ship didn't have a full load was when we were going to be in, or around home port for more than 2 months(a rare event), just got back from a West Pac, or was going through some sort of certification. Other than those situations, we always had a full load for the "just in case" scenarios that can happen to any naval vessel. The only thing we didn,t have all the time was helo and it was like that on both the cruiser USS Bunker Hill(CG52)and the destroyer USS David R. Ray (DD971) that I was on.

The main way to handle the cost, is you better have one hell of a good reason for launching them in the first place. Ships make and excelent place to store said weapons because they are ready when needed and you don't have to provide storage elesware.

 

[Hal]

Originally posted by Granpafishy:
The only thing we didn,t have all the time was helo and it was like that on both the cruiser USS Bunker Hill(CG52)and the destroyer USS David R. Ray (DD971) that I was on.

Hiya Granpafishy

Thanks for bringing that up. As you might guess, I am fond of games such as HARPOON and the like. Your comment about not having the helo jogged memories such as "You're commander of... and your forward missile launch system has developed a critical malfunction that has been determined to require 4 hours to fix".

Thanks again

 

[savage]

Hal,
If we look back to classic travel, the PF Sloan was fast and agile, it had two missile bays and 3 laser batteries of 10. For defense it had nuclear dampers and meson screeens. No fuel purification, fighters, or ships troops!

Here is the PF Sloan conversion I did for my campaign;

PF Sloan class Fleet Escort
Designed by: Admiral Savage (based on CT: Fighting Ships and Challenger 25)
Statistics:
5,000-ton Hull (Cylinder) - Streamlined
AC: 20 (15 vs. Meson Guns) AR: 5 (TL-14) SI: 350 Initiative: 6
Starship Size: Large Cost: 2,924.627 MCr (3,655.872 MCr without discount)
Model/9 Fib (PP: 65/14) Computer Avionics: Less than 10,000-ton
Sensors: System Wide Communications: System Wide (Maser)
Cargo: 40.0-tons
Extra Ship's Stores (8 weeks,5.1t, .3024 Mcr):
120 person/weeks of Luxury Stores, 288 person/weeks of Standard Stores,
Annual Maintenance = 292.47 KCr (146.235 KCr if routinely maintained)
Routine Maintenance = 73.117 KCr/Month (731.174 KCr per year)
Performance:
Jump-4 (enough fuel for 1x Jump-4), J1=500t, J4= 2000t
Acceleration: 6-G Agility: 6
Power Plant: TL-15 Fusion (750 EP output, enough fuel for 4 weeks), 4wks=375
Fuel Scoops,
Atmospheric Speeds: NOE = 1,175kph Cruising = 3,525kph Maximum = 4,700kph
Active Defenses:
Nuclear Dampers USP:2
Meson Screens USP:2
Weapons:
Hardpoints: 30
30x Triple Beam Laser Turret TL-15, +4 To Hit, 4d8 (20/x1), Range: 30,000km
3 Batteries of 10 each
2x 50-ton Missile Bay TL-15, +9 To Hit, 9d6 (18/x1), Range: 90,000km
Ammo: 2400missiles (120t)
Ship's Vehicles:
1x 8-ton vehicle hangar
1x 4-ton vehicle hangar
3x 50-ton small craft (Internal Hangar)
1x 24-ton small craft (Internal Vehicle Bay)
1x maintenance shop (20 Mechanics)
Launch facilities for 1 Craft per turn
Accomodations & Fittings:
29x Double Occupancy Stateroom (58 People)
6x Standalone Fresher
3x Armory (Store, Repair, Test - 12t)
1x Sickbay (2 Patients)
1x Autodoc
2x Airlocks
Crew Details:
7x Command Officers, 3x Command Crew
1x Flight Officers, 8x Flight Crew
1x Gunnery Officers, 14x Gunnery Crew
2x Engineering Officers, 15x Engineering Crew
3x Medical Officers, 0x Medical Crew
0x Service Crew

Description:
This design is intended as a conversion of the PF Sloan in CT: Fighting Ships and Marc Miller's
design in Challenger 25.

The T20 design has the following detailed features:
1) 54 crew instead of 40,
a) Gunnery: 1 Officer, Screen Team - 2each, Missile Team - 2 Each, Laser Batteries - 2 each,
b) Captain has a 2 double staterooms, First Officer has 1 double stateroom,
c) No services crew - All duties split amongst the crew,
d) No Ships Troops,.
e) Medical: 1 Officer, 2 Petty Officers,
2) 2400 missiles in a 120t missile storage hold,
3) Armory for storage, repair, and practise (12t, 4Mcr),
4) double ships stores to 60 days for long missions,
5) 24t Vehicle Deck with air/lock, seperate G-carrier and Air/Raft bays, a maintenance shop and
6t of vehicle fuel.
6) The bridge is broken into several decks and includes a ready room.


Marc Miller's article in Challenger 25 explains the intended use of the Fleet Escort. So you can call them DE's, CVE's, FE's or whatever...

Savage

 

[Hal]

Hello Savage,
I thank you for your post on the Sloan. I will likely have to take a closer look at it and see if I can build a GURPS TRAVELLER version of it. At 5,000 dtons, its sensor suite could go as high as scan rating 11+36 or 47 total. Not too shabby. I will let you know what it looks like in GURPS TRAVELLER sometime perhaps November 7th or so...

 

[savage]

Hal,

Your welcome. I'd appreciate that since my goal is to have access to Traveller CT, TNE, MT designs in T20 or Gurps...saves me the time of making one.
If you have others your interested in I've put several on my website.

I just noticed a minor error...bad habit. Its 56 days (8weeks*7days/wk) of stores not 60 days.

Cheers.

 

[Hemdian]

Originally posted by Hal:
Suppose you have a Cruiser Squadron with three Heavy cruisers, a repair ship, a supply ship with reloads for missiles, and a tanker ship to aid in fuel resupply operations.

What would you want in the way of escort ships, and what design parameters would you want met with your ships.

Keep in mind, that the navy doesn't really want to have to pay through the nose for the best ships possible - it only wants to get the job done and still have money left over for research and development costs, training costs, resupply costs, etc. So what are the MINIMUMS you want to see knowing that you may not always be able to use the MAXIMUMS you could get.

I see that this is a mature thread but I'd like to respond to the original post to show how I'd do it IMTU.

First we need to know what the squadron's purpose is. The backbone of the squadron is three Heavy Cruisers. Lets assume these are Atlantic class Heavy Cruisers or similar. The notes on the Atlantic class read as follows:

This class of cruiser has proven popular with the Navy for independent missions, especially beyond the Imperial border. Used alone, the ships are capable of a variety of diplomatic and scientific operations. Used in squadrons, they provide a useful show of force or reinforcement for friendly client-states.

The inclusion of a repair ship, a supply ship, and a tanker tend to confirm the independent mission profile beyond the Imperial border. So, this squadron is not intended to fulfill a screening function as part of a larger fleet, nor is it a scouting squadron per se (which tend to use Light Cruisers) or an assault squadron (which tend to use Strike Cruisers). And while the Atlantic class has Jump-5 I don't think we are talking of deep penetration raiders, either. Also, having only three cruisers seems a bit light.

Conclusion: this squadron's primary mission is "show of force" and client-state reinforcement along both sides of the Imperial border. No major confrontations are expected, but resupply may sometimes be a problem.

Second, the lack of fighters worries me. I know they are fairly useless in large pitched battles but I like them for in-system scouting, anti-boat duty during GG-refueling, and dealing with petty annoyances. If the budget will stretch to it I'd add a Skimkish class Light Carrier. That would provide 80 Fury class Heavy Fighters.

Next comes the escort division: I usually favour a pair of Fer-de-lance class Destroyer Escorts for each unarmed capital ship (6 total), plus a Chrysanthenum class Destroyer Escort for each armed capital ship (4 total if we get the carrier).

Finally, out-system scouting and long range courier duty. Half a dozen Gazelle class Close Escorts should surfice.

In other words:
- 3x Atlantic class Heavy Cruisers
- 1x Skimkish class Light Carrier
- 3x assorted support ships
- 4x Chrysanthenum class Destroyer Escorts
- 6x Fer-de-lance class Destroyer Escorts
- 6x Gazelle class Close Escorts

That's my *minimum* (assuming I am correct about the mission profile) ... but I wouldn't turn down the addition of 3 Destroyers (either Midu Agashaam class of Gormandocy class) if they were available.

Regards PLST

 

[Hal]

Hello Mr Hemdian,
Welcome to the discussion and thank you for your contribution. Your analysis was an enjoyable read.

Some of what I'm reading in your post seem to be worth noting for use in a Traveller Universe for the following reasons:

1) Sector Fleet compositions.
2) planetary naval fleet compositions.


If we use the Striker concept that 30% of a world's GPP (Gross Planetary product) is sent to the Imperium (ie Imperial navy and Army), 40% is sent to the world's army forces, the remaining 30% would be spent on either of (or perhaps Both) Sector navies and planetary Navies.

Ofnoconsequence - a planet under discussion in another thread was originally envisioned as an agricultural world. Its infrastructure wouldn't be geared towards producing a major planetary navy.

But again, thank you for your input in this thread

 

[Drakon]

30% of the GPP is sent offplanet???? Is this right? With 40 going to the military, and the remaining 30 being split between sector and planetary navies, what are the folks on the planet living on? You cannot tax 100% of your GPP and have a functioning economy, or really even any people on the planet left alive to have an economy at all. You may do it once, but after that, you are screwed.

Decimal point error? Or possibly what you meant was 30 percent of the taxes collected from the GPP?

 

[The Oz]

Hal is incorrectly remembering the STRIKER rules.

According to STRIKER, 3% of a planet's GPP (Gross Planetary Product) is spent on the military. On Imperial worlds, 30% of that 3% is sent to help pay for the Imperial military, and (as I read it) 40% of the remainder (that is, 40% of 70%) is spent on the local army, with the remainder available for the local navy.

So if we have an Imperial world that produces MCr1000 in military taxation each year, MCr300 are sent to the Imperium, and of the MCr700 left, MCr280 are spent on the local army, and MCr420 are spent on the local navy. Using STRIKER rules on economies, this might be a world of TL12 with a population of just over 2 milion people.

According to TRILLION CREDIT SQUADRON, a world like that (TL12, pop 2 million) produces a naval budget of MCr1000, and that's without any government type modifer. Even if we assume that 30% of that budget is sent to the Imperial military, you get MCr700 from TCS rules, which is a lot more than STRIKER gives you.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by The Oz:

"Hal is incorrectly remembering the STRIKER rules."


TheOz,

Yes, he may have. However, you are not current with regard to Marc W. Miller's pronouncements regarding Imperial taxation and revenue either.

After a thread earlier this year on both the JTAS boards and the TML dealing with naval budgets, Mr. Miller let it be known that the TCS budget and building metrics cannot be applied to the Imperium. The Striker numbers are in the same boat. Both set of metrics were developed for wargames and not as part of any attempt to actually detail Imperial taxation and budgetary methods.

Currently, the best peek we have at Imperial military spending is GT:Ground Forces and that covers just a tiny part of the picture. The soon to be released GT:Nobles and the continually delayed GT:Imperial Navy may give us a more complete picture. Until then, any budgetary talk is nothing but guess work.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[kaladorn]

Good points, LEW.

TCS was a vacc-sucker extension. It ignored (mostly) the whole gropo thing. The fact the navy got the budget is just.... to be expected. Striker, though likely incorrect as Larsen points out if applied cross-Imperium and possibly invalidated by current theories, is at least a *little* more valid.

Note however that it makes no mention of COACC or Nuatical Force and whose allotment COACC money comes out of. I'd guess a fair split would be 50/50 from planetary army and navy for COACC, and 100% from planetary army for nautical force command.

Also, note that the % sent to "The Imperial Navy" is probably not *all* sent off planet, in most cases. Where there are bases, recruiting offices, supply dumps, etc, there will be some of the money being spent. Also, supply contracts will probably be distributed, so some of the money may get spent locally in that manner. Only low-tech, backwater type worlds will see all of that chunk leave the world, but .... it probably won't be all that much money given the aforementioned characterization.

 

[Hal]

My Bad!!!!

After reading the posts that came after my last batch of GIGO - the corrected statement was as others point out.

It is 3% of GPN and I was ultimately thinking that about 1% of a planet's Gross planetary product (according to striker's given example of 3% of GPP of which 30% goes to the Imperium). I can only plead guilty of having been momentarily distracted from my train of thought when I wrote that last bit.

Hiya Mr Larsen! Long time no SEE!!!! I sent out another "care" package to someone out in Florida this time

I almost parted (but got sane again!) with my second copy of FAR TRADER and FIRST IN. I just sent the first in one...

 

[Whipsnade]

Hal wrote:

"Hiya Mr Larsen! Long time no SEE!!!!"

Hal,

Well, well, well! It's like Old Home Week in here! How have you been?

"I sent out another "care" package to someone out in Florida this time

"

You should be happy to know that I've taken a page from your book and sent off a few care packages of mine own. Mostly recycled materials and products, one as far as New Zealand and another to a US state medium security prison, both RPG and minis stuff. I've also 'bought' some common materials for my FLAGS. Pay it forward, bucko!

"I almost parted (but got sane again!) with my second copy of FAR TRADER and FIRST IN. I just sent the first in one..."

Good Sweet Strephon! Those are pure gold! Hopefully SJG will reprint them soon, everyone wants one!


Sincerely,
Larsen